Heads Up, Rio Welded loop issue

[DennisV]

Ok Here’s the facts

Brand new virgin never been cast Rio Outbound Short (cw) 11 wt floater

TFO 10 wt TiCr rod

Practice casting in my front yard which is more of a mowed cow pasture
than a nice lawn.

No leader attached

Decent (but not great) caster. I was throwing it a long way but I did crack the whip a handful of times getting my timing down with that taper.

After about 15 minutes I brought the tip to hand to practice some Quick Casts for an upcoming trip to the Keys

And this is what I saw.

Yikes !
http://i911.photobucket.com/albums/ac314/dvagt_photo/DSC_0980.jpg


Well what do you think?

Operator error damaged by stripping back through the grass.
Traumatic event (pinged a rock on the fall? Maybe but surely not with any significant force)
Isolated manufacturing defect in loop
Systematic manufacturing defect in loop
Environmental deterioration
Bad Karma


I really like the line and have no intension of returning it. I’ll just nail knot and superglue a butt section on it like every other line I’ve used for the last several decades. I’ve never had a failure with method.

[Woodman]

I've got to think it had a lot to do with no leader and cracking the whip as you call it.

[Bob Laskodi]

NEVER test cast a line without a leader attached. That's one of the quickest ways to ruin the end of the line. I agree with W, when you cracked the whip you cracked the coating and subsequent crack the whips flung the coating off.

[DennisV]

Sounds plausible enough. The stresses at the end of a cracking whip are pretty severe. I guess a leader will let the line transfer energy out to end of the leader instead of abruptly stopping it at the loop.

It's interesting to note that the line coating is only fractured at the weld and not at the tip of the loop or on the line above the weld. Definetly the weak link in the system.

But I don't recall ever hearing that a loop had failed on a fish. Have you?

Any other theories?

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Welded loops have come a long ways.....

They are evolving all the time.

[jbird]

Very hard to say exactly what happened. It does look like a fairly traumatic seperation.

[DennisV]

Hey Bill

Do you know a Rio Rep. who might care to comment on this ?

It might save the next knucklehead from doing what this knucklehead has already done.

#-o

[pgw]

To put things in perspective, remember that the "Crack" sound which occurs during an improper cast (not allowing the entire length of line..including the leader & fly to turn over and straighten out before starting the cast in the oposite direction) is the end of the line breaking the sound barrier...aircraft (and some land based vehicles) which were constructed out of material that may be structurally stronger than flylines, leaders, and flies, broke apart when traveling at that speed.

Paul

[huntindog]

this is why i am still pretty fond of a nail knot...for whatever reason i have just never trusted welded loops

[Terry Thomas]

From your description, this isn't an issue of "loop failure." It appears to a problem with misuse of a fly line. On the bright side, you did illustrate what can happen when a leader and fly or yarn is not attached to the end of a fly line. The line will still function fine with a mono butt section or by adding a braided loop on to the end of the line. Fly lines functioned perfectly well before loops were added on to the ends of fly lines and there a plenty of anglers that still cut their loops off. Everyone has made a mistake or two when it comes to fly fishing.

[pgw]

To reinforce the welded loops and braided loops on lines, I add two whip finishes to them. I use 3/0 thread to add a pair of 1/8" (or so) whip finishes and covered with Pliobond...no failures yet.

Paul

[jbird]

I cut them off anyway. Id rather use/trust a self tied knot

[Loren E]

A combination of factors, but as others said mainly the whipping. Best to avoid test casting on a surface that isn't water or lawn though, it beats a line up really fast.


this is why i am still pretty fond of a nail knot...for whatever reason i have just never trusted welded loops

this is definitely not evidence that nail knot connections are more reliable than loops. RIO is at the top of the fly line game and a defective welded loop would be a rare thing. I rig lines all the time in Western Sport Shop and NEVER use just a nail knot to connect backing to fly line or fly line to butt section for saltwater/big game setups, only for small trout and panfish. This is because with any serious stress over time a nail knot will simply strip the coating off the fly line and eventually give. Much more trustworthy is a welded loop that has been taken care of (I have heard of airflo line issues but not RIO), or a custom done version of the same concept (I put the end of the fly line into one of John Quigley's double-catch braided loops and then nail knot the loop onto the fly line, but the nail knot is backup to the chinese finger trap/double catch connection created by the loop).

My .02 -LE

[Dan L]

I am the Cortland Line Co. rep, not Rio's. For this I can say that it is not a problem with the Rio Line. Got to have a leader w/ a fly or yarn on it or this is what happens. Don't worry as welded loops have been around for just a few years. As several other persons have said, cut the small damage off and attach a mono butt section or a braided loop,"Cortland product" and you are good to go.

Thanks
Dan Liechty

[Hairstacker]

Loren, I don't think you give nail knots enough credit when you imply they're only good for small trout and panfish. I've tied and used my own nail knots for close to 30 years and I've yet to have a single failure. I think that connection is much stronger than you suspect and if you snip off and re-tie them when you notice any fly line cracking at the junction, you will not experience failures. That's been my experience, anyway. I also fabricate my own braided mono loops, by the way, and fully trust them as well.

[hookjaw77]

While floating So. Fork of the Snake River, I hooked up un a log jam within a foot of the welded loop. The strength of that loop was unbelievable and could not break it off from the boat. We had to beach the boat and walk back up stream to attemp to break it and replace with a nail knot. Even standing on land from about 30 feet away I could not get that loop to fail.
I had to start throwing loops to free the leader down toward the tippet before I could break the leader. The only damage was to the outer coating but the core was still intact. I have a lot more trust in the welded loop now.
my 2 cents
Swanee

[Loren E]

I have no hard evidence to prove nail knots are weaker, just anecdotal evidence that I doubt you will find a tarpon, bonefish, permit, striper, redfish, or offshore guide anywhere who attaches a butt section with a nail knot....it is going to be a welded loop, a re-inforced albright, or a mono loop. This was also what I was taught by the experts at Leland's when I worked there and re-inforced at Western Sport Shop. My only evidence is that I haven't had any of the above connections break ever on large fish from dorado to stripers etc, and the only time I pushed a nail knot was on a 6 weight outfit for light saltwater use and it wore out relatively quickly and cracked the coating of the line and was easily stripped off with a solid tug when I suspected it had weakened already. I have no hard evidence from any testing though, so I won't make any claims that I can prove anything here. Mike I have seen some awesome photos on this board of BIG bass you've caught on the delta, and those guys definitely test gear, so you could be right that I am not giving enough credit to a well-tied and often replaced nail knot, definitely wouldn't be in my top 3 choices for anything big though. Best -LE

[Fats]

As others have said... you don't cast a fly line without a leader. You just found out why. Nail knot a butt section on and learn for the next time!

The good news is the line isn't ruined.

[Woodman]

I agree with the nail knot discussion to a degree. I will use a nail knotted butt section on a six-weight and below line. For larger gear, which I am expecting larger fish, I use a modification. I loop over the end of the fly line, nail knot 30# or greater mono around the doubled line, and then pull the butt end through the small loop left above the nail knot. This is still pretty compact, strong, and can't "strip off the coating" as some have suggested, because it would tend to tighten the loop as it pulled. Have landed tarpon up to 140# with this. Hopefully this makes sense without a picture.

For larger gear and fish, I'm never going to rely on something I haven't put together myself. I once fished with a friend who had his line attached by a large southern California fly shop. A large trout took him into his backing. As he tried to gain back line, the nail knot failed. We were fortunate to be able to row down and recover the floating line - fish no longer attached. The telltale pigtail in the end of the backing told the story. Not everyone who works in a fly shop is an expert...

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Another comment from a retailer is that if a fly line company doesn't have welded loops on both ends of their fly lines they will not be in the running anymore.

Welded loops have evolved a lot and they are the standard now. For the first few years we did see failures with welded loops.

Here at Kiene's we all go on trips all over the world with dozens of customers and see no measurable failures with welded loops, even in saltwater.

We sell over $100,000.00 in fly lines yearly so I think we are seeing a lot more of what is going on than any individuals are.

For the largest of salt water species (marlin and tuna over 200#) I can imagine that some of those serious guys have their own ways of rigging their gear.

Also some serious spring creek fly fishers might choose to have a special lower profile connection. We use to epoxy the end of the leader into the fly line many years ago.

What is wonderful is that if you want to you can cut them off and do it your way......we respect that too.

[Tony Buzolich]

I have to agree with both Woodman and Loren. Woodman, the knot you describe sounds almost like a version of an Albright. Wrapping a nail-knot around a doubled line and then through the small loop creates a lock and as the butt gets pulled the lock gets tighter.

For smaller rod situations a nail-know works fine when you're not into something big but the coating around the core of line WILL come of without too much pulling. I believe most fly line cores are around 26-28#. If you were to use 40-60# butt for bigger fish you'd be heavier than the fly line and surely the coating would be the weak link. For bigger fish most companys are going to a heavier core line such as the Leviathan or the Billfish lines with 60# cores. The guys that use these lines don't use nail-knots.
TONY

[jbird]

This thread has evolved into the different rigging for specific situations. Wouldnt be a bad idea to have a 'sticky' on this subject at the top of the general forum.

I personaly use a nail knot from panfish to salmon. I have caught a LOT of big fish in the last 20+ years and have had my share of line failures, but I can not recall one single instance that it was a nail knot failure.
For tarpon and other big fish I will us a braided loop. I believe the welded loops will hold, but Im just a bit more comfortable with the braided loop. A correctly tied albright knot is pretty bomb proof tho and would be my second choice for big fish.

[DennisV]

Oh for crying out loud.

No nail knots on a line over a six weight? For real ?

What on earth did saltwater and salmon guys do for the fifty years before welded loops were invented.

There's only one way to settle this.

The Mano-a-Mano grudge match team tug-of-war to the death event
in Kiene's Flyfishing Expo Parking Lot Stadium, April 23rd

The Welded Loopers vs. The Nailknotters with four feet of heavy butt section connecting their respective lines.

May the best connection win ! :D

[Loren E]

Oh for crying out loud.

No nail knots on a line over a six weight? For real ?

What on earth did saltwater and salmon guys do for the fifty years before welded loops were invented.

There's only one way to settle this.

The Mano-a-Mano grudge match team tug-of-war to the death event
in Kiene's Flyfishing Expo Parking Lot Stadium, April 23rd

The Welded Loopers vs. The Nailknotters with four feet of heavy butt section connecting their respective lines.

May the best connection win ! :D

LOL....I like your idea Dennis!

PS in regards to what salmon and saltwater guys did before welded loops were invented....well I certainly haven't been around that long but if it were me it would have been a locked albright! That's how I rig my tarpon/roosterfish lines. (I have also seen a variation on the normal nail knot that looks like a totally different animal...where you send the tag back up and through the knot an extra time and end up with a much fatter knot but something that is less likely to peel the coating)

[Bob Laskodi]

Yep, it was called an Albright, or multiple linked nail knots. I also don't use a nail knot on anything above a 6 wt either. I don't like losing big fish.

[BillB]

How about this for potential disaster. Does anyone still use a needle nail knot? I saw my first one many years ago at the Fly Shop in Redding when they rigged a new line for my wife. I have since rigged a few myself but gave that practice up when it seemed, the line became to small to see properly, impatience trying to get the needle deep enough in the line, and, finally, it became apparent to me that I was causing considerable damage to the line. I recently rigged a OBS with a perfection loop to loop.

[Dave E.]

Hi Bill,

I do, as the connection between the fly line and the mono leader control on five weights and down, on non-mono cored lines. In a quarter century of rigging lines for customers, when used in that application, I can honestly say I can't remember ever having one person come back with a failure. I've also had hundreds upon hundreds come back asking for me to put them on their other light lines.

One of the problems with that knot, or any knot for that matter that isn’t learned correctly, practiced or tied frequently, is that they’re often not well tied, or are used in the wrong application, thus they fail.

Most all of the knots that are still in use today, are in use for good reason. However that reason may not suit your particular application.

All the best, Dave