Tipping your guide

[Sammy]

How much do you all tip? let's say for 6-8 hours of guiding done well.

[Paul B.]

20% but sometimes more. If I fish with a guide in a powerboat I keep gas prices in mind too.
I don't get the chance to go very often but when I do I don't mind paying for a good day on the water.

[Bruce Slightom]

I think that 20 percent is about right. Another factor to consider is the guide independent or working out of a shop. A shop will take a percentage.

[wjorg]

Maybe I fishe with cheap bums but I have always been the bigger tipper with $50. Now that you made me do the math, thats barely above 10% if the day costs $475 like you see with some of these guys.

So tell me how much ya'll tip the "massuese?" : )

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

I'm an independent fly fishing guide. Are you implying that you will tip an independent guide less than a shop guide?

Frank R. Pisciotta

[CapitalFishr]

Good thread... I've only been on one guided trip... and well... I owe somebody some money.

[Bruce Slightom]

Frank, absolutely not. But I guided for about thirty years and work out of lodges and for shops and as an independent. The times that I worked for lodges the only way we got ahead was by tips.

As an independent I could set my own profit margin and did not have to depend on tips.

[Scott V]

I have never believed in percentage tipping. I will tip what I feel is fair depending on the service I am given. That can range from nothing to $100 or more. I have yet to not tip a guide, but if you are a jerk and treat me with no respect I have no problem not tipping at all. And I am an easy client to please.

[Bob Laskodi]

I do a lot of guided trips, and my tipping percentage is all over the place from nothing (only has happened twice) to over 30% (has only happened a few times). However, most of the time, the tip I give is in the 10-15% range. The amount of tip I give is dependent on how hard the guide works, not on the amount of fish I catch. If he's fishing me 12-13 hours a day (even on a poor day), they will get a bigger tip than if they only fish me eight (even on a good day). One guide only fished me six hours, and got no tip (and he was pissed!) because I felt that he did not work hard enough for a day's pay to deserve extra. I do not tip differently if you are an independent vs an outfitter, even though I realize the outfitter does take a portion of the fee from the guide.

[jbird]

I have never believed in percentage tipping. I will tip what I feel is fair depending on the service I am given. That can range from nothing to $100 or more. I have yet to not tip a guide, but if you are a jerk and treat me with no respect I have no problem not tipping at all. And I am an easy client to please.

Couldnt have said it any better.

[Rick J]

I would agree with the 20% as typical - so if I am fishing alone with a guide it would be the full amount - so it would be around $100 for a day at $500 and if with another person it would be $50 per person.

When Bruce and I did our float last year on the Grand Ronde we each paid the guides $50/day and $25/day for the camp folks (there were 4 of them) - this came up to $150/day for tips and it was well worth it!!! Great service from everyone and great fun!

[wjorg]

I would agree with the 20% as typical - so if I am fishing alone with a guide it would be the full amount - so it would be around $100 for a day at $500 and if with another person it would be $50 per person.

When Bruce and I did our float last year on the Grand Ronde we each paid the guides $50/day and $25/day for the camp folks (there were 4 of them) - this came up to $150/day for tips and it was well worth it!!! Great service from everyone and great fun!


Thanks Rick, you made me feel better. My $50 tip is always with another guy in the boat who is tipping too! I'm not such a cheap bastard after all, just a schmuck...

[Sammy]

cool sounds like i'm ok. i've only been on one guided trip. (herb out in lewiston) He was awesome. we tipped $60.00 and he seemed very appreciative. Even gave us some flies for the next day as well as chilling for an extra 1/2 hour and enjoying a cold one with us.

Need a guide for 3 dudes on June 24th in Tahoe if anybody has a recommendation. thinking little truckee depending on flows

[chixnribs]

Brendan Burnside 530-318-6717. Straight up awesome guide.

[fj40]

Now, what if you book a guide through a shop and the shop tells you that the fishing has been good. You go out and spend a day fishing your but off and not catch a fish. Feeling a bit duped by the shop. Knowing what good fishing should be like and knowing that you should have caught fish. I would not have booked the guide if they would have told me that the fishing was not that great. I did ask a couple of times.

[RenoLipRipper]

Great thread. Wow, my wife and I tipped for two-two day guided outings $160 to one guide and $180 to the other. Price of trips in 2007 were I believe $375 so we were ok.. I think the resturant rules could apply. 20% for excellent service and so fourth. A guiide should not expect a tip but when one is tipped they should be appreciative no matter the amount.

[amoeba]

Well I totally disagree with the 20% rule; tipping guides is not like a restaurant:

Restaurant people are paid min wage or less; guides are not; they are paid a fair price - and they should charge a fair price - and not expect tips.

As such, while tipping is only for exceptional service generally, it is especially so for guiding. Tips are not for average service - or below (see below) - at $400/day. If that's not enough money for a guide, then charge more. But don't charge less for guide service with the expectation that it is going to be made up in tips.

That said, I only tip when the guide service is exceptional (whether or not fish are caught). Guides that watch clock, knock off at the best dusk fishing times bcz they have something scheduled at some ridiculously close time to the end of the guide period is one of my pet peeves. Another is pounding one piece of water forever with other guides close by. A third is only fishing from a boat as if that was the only way to catch fish. A fourth is "horse blinder mentality" - as if there are only two patterns in the world, both nymphs. A fifth is the "dries don't work" mentality. Nothing wrong with any of the above, one or more of the above occurs in the majority of such guided trips. It just isn't top notch service in my opinion. No offense, it may not apply to you, but it does to me.

Conversely, guides that explore, vary methods, show new methods/techniques/correct errors (like changing from nymphs to dries; use something else besides a san juan worm), show up early/work late, as needed, and don't rush the client, put me in a frame of mind to tip.

I do guided trips from time to time; it is fun and worth the money simply to have someone else row the whole (or half day). Yet, alot of the time I wonder which way the knowledge transfer is.

[Mike O]

I had a question regarding independents vs. fly shop guides and the statement about the shop getting a cut.

Were you saying that the shop would get a cut of the tip or the fee only?

When I tip those who deserve it, from the paperboy to a guide, I tip in cash. That way, NO ONE, incl. Uncle Sam, gets a cut. I know wait staff in restaurants have a portion of the tip added into their taxes, and many don't really share their tips around much (I was a bus boy and dishwasher in a high-end restaurant, and got nearly bupkis), which is why I have been known to directly tip a bus boy, while stiffing the waiter, because the busser was doing the waiter's job (he gave us bread, water, and brought out our food) because the waiter was on the phone (could see him outside).

[amoeba]

I had a question regarding independents vs. fly shop guides and the statement about the shop getting a cut.

Were you saying that the shop would get a cut of the tip or the fee only?

When I tip those who deserve it, from the paperboy to a guide, I tip in cash. That way, NO ONE, incl. Uncle Sam, gets a cut. I know wait staff in restaurants have a portion of the tip added into their taxes, and many don't really share their tips around much (I was a bus boy and dishwasher in a high-end restaurant, and got nearly bupkis), which is why I have been known to directly tip a bus boy, while stiffing the waiter, because the busser was doing the waiter's job (he gave us bread, water, and brought out our food) because the waiter was on the phone (could see him outside).

What you are implying here (non-reporting of cash tips) is a really bad idea. Tips, cash or otherwise, are taxable earned income. A tip-based employee (e.g., restaurant worker), who reports no tips, or some silly proportion (like 10%, when it is actually 20% or more) is asking for an audit of every cent that has passed through your hands, credit cards, rent, utilities, and bank accounts; and -if you cheated - paying alot of back years in taxes, and more in penalties than they would have in tax.

Don't make an example out of yourself, especially a bad one.

[DFrink]

You have to be kidding me... or do you work for the IRS?


What you are implying here (non-reporting of cash tips) is a really bad idea. Tips, cash or otherwise, are taxable earned income. A tip-based employee (e.g., restaurant worker), who reports no tips, or some silly proportion (like 10%, when it is actually 20% or more) is asking for an audit of every cent that has passed through your hands, credit cards, rent, utilities, and bank accounts; and -if you cheated - paying alot of back years in taxes, and more in penalties than they would have in tax.

Don't make an example out of yourself, especially a bad one.

[Darian]

After putting in 37.5 years in public service (most in taxing agencies, I can say that Amoeba is, generally, correct. :nod:

If you intend to tip in cash, there's nothing wrong or illegal involved. In the case of independents, it's the responsibility of the individual to report/pay applicable taxes. Other methods are used where employers (restaurants, bars, etc.) to report/pay taxes. Nothing different than reporting/paying any personal income for tax purposes. If you choose not to comply, you take your chances on being audited and having the applicable taxes, penalties and interest assessed. A painful experience. :confused:

A word to the wise appears to be in order. If you fail to comply or encourage others not to comply with applicable tax laws, don't talk about it on a public forum (like a bulletin Board) and remember, ignorance is no excuse for failure to comply. :-|

[WhipperSnapper]

After putting in 37.5 years in public service (most in taxing agencies, I can say that Amoeba is, generally, correct. :nod:

If you intend to tip in cash, there's nothing wrong or illegal involved. In the case of independents, it's the responsibility of the individual to report/pay applicable taxes. Other methods are used where employers (restaurants, bars, etc.) to report/pay taxes. Nothing different than reporting/paying any personal income for tax purposes. If you choose not to comply, you take your chances on being audited and having the applicable taxes, penalties and interest assessed. A painful experience. :confused:

A word to the wise appears to be in order. If you fail to comply or encourage others not to comply with applicable tax laws, don't talk about it on a public forum (like a bulletin Board) and remember, ignorance is no excuse for failure to comply. :-|

I got an idea! Just make it easy for the guide and don't tip him. At least there's no way he can get audited. In all seriousness though, I don't think a guide should expect a tip. It's not the same as waiters or deckhands on party boats. A guide is getting paid directly by the customer while waiters and deckhands are on salary. Someone said tipping helps for gas and other expenses... Isn't that the whole reason why we pay over 300 bucks for a trip.

[Dormanw]

Based on my experience, I can usually tell when a guide isn’t working very hard on my behalf (which is rare) but I find it far more difficult to figure a tip value when they are, which is why I most frequently simply depend on the usual and customary 20% figure. Putting aside percentages and the question of whether to tip or not, I have another question. Given that most of the time I’m splitting a guide’s trip fee with a partner, the quandary I’ve always faced is how much does each angler tip. If it’s a $350 trip, than 20% would be $70. Does each angler then pony up $35? Or does each angler come up with a full 20%, or somewhere in between, such as WJORG, who tips $50, which is about 15%? Two diners at a restaurant each usually pay half of the table’s total tip; they don’t each pay 20%. But what’s fair for a competent guide, independent or not, if two anglers are involved?

Incidentally, “Sammy,” if you’re still looking for one, Frank Pisciotta (530-587-7333) is a top-flight guide in the Tahoe-Truckee area.

[bigfly]

I've gotten nice tips 30%+ from guys who only got a grab or two, but learned a ton, and were happy. Also had guys get into pigs and didn't feel the need. Same goes for rescued hats and thwarted drownings. I figure the tip takes care of itself.
I believe there is a misconception though, I think you pay a guide for "all" the time the he is on the water, trackin bugs, fish and flows, not just for the one day you go out with him.



Jim

[WhipperSnapper]

I believe there is a misconception though, I think you pay a guide for "all" the time the he is on the water, trackin bugs, fish and flows, not just for the one day you go out with him.



Jim

So your saying that a guide doesn't fish for the enjoyment? He is only fishing to learn the water for his clients? I have to disagree.

[GreggH]

Can some of this energy go into explaining the advantages of the switch rod? This pony is hurt'n.

[huntindog]

rather than using the restaurant/ 20% model for tipping maybe we should tip like we do strippers...cary a wad of singles and every time the guide does something spectacular we drop a couple bills in his waders :D

[loganmike]

rather than using the restaurant/ 20% model for tipping maybe we should tip like we do strippers...cary a wad of singles and every time the guide does something spectacular we drop a couple bills in his waders :D

Now that's funny right there, I don't care who you are!

me

[Bob Laskodi]

Dawg, Dude, I love it!!!!! You just changed my tipping approach for guides!!!! Now, I'll have to stock up on a ton of singles before I go to AK in a few months!!!! Man, my wallets gonna be fat!!!!

[shawn kempkes]

Dawg, Dude, I love it!!!!! You just changed my tipping approach for guides!!!! Now, I'll have to stock up on a ton of singles before I go to AK in a few months!!!! Man, my wallets gonna be fat!!!!



Be careful you guide might get the wrong idea about that and start giving you a lap dance.
you have to rememeber they havent been in the bush for several months. LOL

[Bob Laskodi]

<<<start giving you a lap dance>>>
OOOOOHHHHH, good point. Maybe I'll keep my old tipping strategy!!!! ;>}

[Mike O]

After putting in 37.5 years in public service (most in taxing agencies, I can say that Amoeba is, generally, correct. :nod:

If you intend to tip in cash, there's nothing wrong or illegal involved. In the case of independents, it's the responsibility of the individual to report/pay applicable taxes. Other methods are used where employers (restaurants, bars, etc.) to report/pay taxes. Nothing different than reporting/paying any personal income for tax purposes. If you choose not to comply, you take your chances on being audited and having the applicable taxes, penalties and interest assessed. A painful experience. :confused:

A word to the wise appears to be in order. If you fail to comply or encourage others not to comply with applicable tax laws, don't talk about it on a public forum (like a bulletin Board) and remember, ignorance is no excuse for failure to comply. :-|

I wasn't encouraging anyone not to report...read my post. I was giving them the option. As was stated, it is the obligation of the tipee to report.

[bigfly]

Whipper, I was stating that you pay for experience, and info.
Not only for the labors of the guide that day.
$350-400 is a nice paycheck for a day, but that is averaged over many-many days on the water.
When you factor in fine rods/reels, dry waders, hand tyed flies, a yummy lunch, and 10-12 hours of dedicated attention, I think it is very fair (especially if you learn a new trick and hook up).
I think a good guide is on the water all the time. The guide fee helps fund his research, and his acting as your stand-in, till the day you show up for the trip.
I save fish for my clients. If guides fished all the time (or as much as people think), fishing would be harder than it already is.
A tip is always great, it shows I exceeded the clients expectations.
I am getting good visuals though, of bills tucked into a wading belt!
But forget the lap dance.

Jim

PS, I have offered some classes in ecstatic fish dancing lately.

[WhipperSnapper]

Whipper, I was stating that you pay for experience, and info.
Not only for the labors of the guide that day.
$350-400 is a nice paycheck for a day, but that is averaged over many-many days on the water.
When you factor in fine rods/reels, dry waders, hand tyed flies, a yummy lunch, and 10-12 hours of dedicated attention, I think it is very fair (especially if you learn a new trick and hook up).
I think a good guide is on the water all the time. The guide fee helps fund his research, and his acting as your stand-in, till the day you show up for the trip.
I save fish for my clients. If guides fished all the time (or as much as people think), fishing would be harder than it already is.
A tip is always great, it shows I exceeded the clients expectations.
I am getting good visuals though, of bills tucked into a wading belt!
But forget the lap dance.

Jim

PS, I have offered some classes in ecstatic fish dancing lately.

I know a couple guides that fish all the time... Maybe it's because he doesn't have many clients, but I know he's not fishing to research for his clients. He's fishing because it's what he loves to do. I never said 350-400 wasn't a fair price. I know some guides charge the client extra to rent gear like rods and waders. My point is, you can't say part of the fee goes to 15 years ago when a future guide went fishing with his buddy.

[amoeba]

I have been guiding for 7 years now and have seen lots of variation in tipping. I have some ideas for those of you who aren't familiar with tipping. Well at least from my point of view.

My average tip in CA is $60 for the boat. This is a nice 15% tip. I charge $400 for the day.

My average tip in ID is $100. The increase in tip is largely because of the high end clientele that we serve at the Lodge at Palisades Creek. The cost of the day there is $485. So this comes out to 20%.

One thing that I have learned talking to other guides if you give a $100 tip for the boat it seems like everyone is really happy. I know that I get stoked when I get a hundy. So if you shoot for that 20% mark then you will have an appreciative guides.

Now with all of that said not tipping is a good way to not get invited to fish again. This is the biggest disrespect that you could ever show your guide. Even if you are conservative with your money at least throw your guide $20. I have only been blanked once but this was because the guy didn't know that tipping is customary.

My last ten cents is that if you tip really well then you might get special treatment the next time you come fishing. I have a good client that tips 200+ each day we fish. When he comes out on the water I will fish him until as late as he wants. Last year he came out to Idaho for the first time. We did one drift from 8-5PM and then I put the boat back in the water and did a second small drift from 6-9PM. Now if he was a regular tipping client he would not get that special treatment.

Well I hope that clears up some ideas on tipping from a guides point of view. I know that some of you probably don't agree with me but I think most guides are under my style of thinking. There is no doubt that your guide should work hard. More than that your guide should do his absolute best to make sure that you have a good time on the water.

Tight Lines!

Speak for yourself (everyone is really happy if >$100 - meaning what - not happy if <$100; fishes late only for repeat client tipping >$200; thinks tipping is "customary"; the "at least" $20 remark; non-tipping = "biggest disrespect you could ever show a guide" remark). So you get stoked if you get a "hundy"; meaning the $400 was worth spit? You should be stoked each and every day. If the tip is making a difference, you need to either charge more or find something else to do.

[wjorg]

How much do you tip your child's teacher?

Your dental hygenist?

A plumber?

....it was thought provoking for me.

[ifsteve]

I have fished with a fair number of guides and have always tipped them. But I too have wondered just where this came from. As stated by others, while yes a guide is providing a service, it is way different than a true service such as a waiter/waitress. Every one of those guides was making a pretty fair hunk of change to start with. As I said, I have tipped every guide I ever fished with including the one single time when I couldn't stand the idiot and couldn't wait to get off the boat with him. Just wondering where all this started.

And here is another question when it comes to guiding. When I worked in a fly shop years ago and also got into saltwater flyfishing there was a pretty big delta between what saltwater guides charged compared to trout guides. And I always thought that was reasonable given the comparitive expenses of each.

Well that sure isn't the case anymore. Guides on the South Fork here are charging essentially the same as a flats guide. I sure would like to figure out how that happened.:confused:

Now that I have rambled on....back to the original thread. I usually tip around 20%.

[huntindog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38

[WhipperSnapper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38

Haha, that's the truth. A guide doesn't need a tip to survive. They are making around 400 bucks a trip. Times that by at least 3 days a week. 1200 a week minus expenses. So maybe 900-1000 a week! That's without tips. People should be ashamed to compare them to waiters who only make 300-400 a week. I'm not saying guides shouldn't be tipped, but they shouldn't be tipped just for the hell of it... People are crazy to tip 20%, but then again they're hiring a guide, so they probably have the money.

[Bob Laskodi]

So $1,000 a week times 52 weeks is $52,000 a year, and that's a lot of money???? Let's see, A $52K a year job, no benefits, and 12 hour days. No thanks, I think I'll stay in my career path, because the pays better!!!!! A good guide deserves a tip, a bad guide does not. Pretty simple really. And as I said earlier I don't tip 20% either. And I have no problem not tipping a bad guide either if they don't deserve it.

[Bob Laskodi]

And you betcha Dawg, I'd sure tip more than 12% for THAT!!!!!!!!!!!! ;>}

[bigfly]

Whipper,
I think you shouldn't auto-tip any more than you should auto-mend.
Act with good intention, and appropriate to the moment.
Both actions could weigh on the overall success of the day.

I never mentioned 15 years ago, I was referring to last week.
When you are a guide, and not just friends with one, we can talk more.
Having worked the shop and the independent roles, I can tell you the hill to climb is much steeper for the independent.
Clients who've hired a guide or two, begin to see how some guides provide services that are not usual, or who are above average in ability. These folks, become the repeats that are key to our survival as guides. These clients almost always tip well, and so will get calls when the fishing is good, or as another guide mentioned, another lap or two after an already full day.
You may not tip your hygienist, but they can't fix the hitch in your cast that's plagued you for years. How much is a tip like that worth?
One good tip, goes a long ways.

Jim

[Ralph]

In most instances you tip employees but not the owner of a business. I'm not sure how self-employed independent guides qualify as employees.

That said, my tips range from zero (happened once with a jack ass big name guide in Florida whose greeting at the dock was, "What did you bring me for lunch?") to 30% for exceptional effort. A guide who spends half his time on the cell phone and telling you how rotten life is, probably won't get as much as the guy with a smile on his face and an eagerness to find fish as well as make the effort to point out wildlife, artifacts, etc. Guiding is 80% people skills and 20% fishing prowess. Tips are kind of the same.

[amoeba]

A guide who spends half his time on the cell phone and telling you how rotten life is, probably won't get as much as the guy with a smile on his face and an eagerness to find fish as well as make the effort to point out wildlife, artifacts, etc. Guiding is 80% people skills and 20% fishing prowess. Tips are kind of the same.

Well - I not only don't like cell phones; but he can keep the smileyface, the wildlife and artefact presentation, and 70% of his people skills for some other time as well;

I'll give it 10% people skills, and split the difference on the rest (45% boating skill, 45% fishing prowess). In fact, I'm not sure I wouldn't enjoy a guide who was simply great with positioning a boat for a fishermen, and kept the chit-chat to a minimum, save it for lunch.

[OceanSunfish]

If a guide (or any other service provider) believes their effort is worth $475, then charge $475, not $375 plus an expected $100 in tip. Obviously, not all guides are equal and they should charge accordingly.... no different than any other service provider.

And, afterall, the highest compliment is in the form of return business or being highly recommended to others for additional business. As a service provider, return business means sustainability.

In summary, I'd rather pay up front the $475 and have it out in the open that:
1) I am not a cheap SOB
2) I expect the guide's best effort
3) If satisfied, I will rebook and recommend to others, etc.

BTW, whatever happened to people just doing their J-O-B to the best of their ability? Now we have tip jars on the counters of coffee/bagel establishments. Ugh.

[WhipperSnapper]

Whipper,

I never mentioned 15 years ago, I was referring to last week.


Jim

You said "ALL" time on the water. To me that means from 15 years ago to 2 hours ago. Whatever happened to guides actually wanting to help out the client? Now your saying 400 bucks isn't enough to help out a client to the best of your ability.

[Jay]

If a guide (or any other service provider) believes their effort is worth $475, then charge $475, not $375 plus an expected $100 in tip. Obviously, not all guides are equal and they should charge accordingly.... no different than any other service provider.

And, afterall, the highest compliment is in the form of return business or being highly recommended to others for additional business. As a service provider, return business means sustainability.

In summary, I'd rather pay up front the $475 and have it out in the open that:
1) I am not a cheap SOB
2) I expect the guide's best effort
3) If satisfied, I will rebook and recommend to others, etc.

BTW, whatever happened to people just doing their J-O-B to the best of their ability? Now we have tip jars on the counters of coffee/bagel establishments. Ugh.

Post of the week!

[oldtrout]

rather than using the restaurant/ 20% model for tipping maybe we should tip like we do strippers...cary a wad of singles and every time the guide does something spectacular we drop a couple bills in his waders :D

That's funny. Not as hilarious as my wading staff, but excellent nontheless.

[Hoser41]

After reading 3 or the 5 pages of posts, I was thinking this exactly. Tell me how much up front the trip will cost and I will pay. Maybe we should tip first then expect a better trip. Just like at a bar. Give the bartender a great tip when you walk in the good drinks all night long...Doesn't tips stand for "To insure prompt service"


If a guide (or any other service provider) believes their effort is worth $475, then charge $475, not $375 plus an expected $100 in tip. Obviously, not all guides are equal and they should charge accordingly.... no different than any other service provider.

And, afterall, the highest compliment is in the form of return business or being highly recommended to others for additional business. As a service provider, return business means sustainability.

In summary, I'd rather pay up front the $475 and have it out in the open that:
1) I am not a cheap SOB
2) I expect the guide's best effort
3) If satisfied, I will rebook and recommend to others, etc.

BTW, whatever happened to people just doing their J-O-B to the best of their ability? Now we have tip jars on the counters of coffee/bagel establishments. Ugh.

[Charlie Gonzales]

Call me stupid(ive been called worse) but I have actualy refused tips before, as politiely as possible. But I often wondered if that was offensive to the client?
They were situations where we both worked our asses off, but it was just "one of those days".

What is the perception of guides calling clients to fish? I have avoided it in the past because I HATE telemarketers with a pation, but it seems like regular practice in the industry. I do send out the ocassional mass email just letting everyone know current conditions though.

As far as the personal fishing goes...... I am on the water at least three days a week, not including guiding, yes because I love to, but more so because fish move and its our obligation to know where they are, etc. Most of the time its through observation, not with rod in hand.

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

I agree with Ralph relative to his comments about people skills…the last two paragraphs address my take on his comments.

Below are some selected excerpts from an article I’ve authored and have had published at different word counts and in different venues; both printed and on-line. I feel the comments are pertinent to this interesting thread; although I do not fully address the real topic of tipping…IMO, that has been pretty thoroughly commented about.


What to Expect When You Hire a Guide

“Hiring a professional fly fishing guide and/or instructor is not a complicated matter. Simply, a fly fishing guide should accommodate your specific desires & skill level. The best way for this to occur is through honest and open communication…from the start, prior to your guide date.”

“Let your prospective guide know what you want done and you expect.
If your requests are not doable, a reputable professional will advise you of such. Both of you want to avoid unfulfilled expectations because they result in you being a dissatisfied client.”

“As for your experience, and I can not over-emphasize it, be honest. Do not overstate your real skill level. If you have exaggerated, a veteran guide will adjust seamlessly; inexperienced guides may less agile.”

“Of course you want to catch fish…that is a given. But is it reasonable relative to existing conditions or your existing skill level? Conditions may not be optimum; water is too high, too cold or warm, there is a lot of wind, to mention a few things that can affect the angling. Your skills may not be up to the task at hand or you are a complete beginner. In any of the aforementioned the guide has no control; he/she must adjust & attempt on making the outing as beneficial, memorable and enjoyable as possible Again that is why it is important you discuss things in advance.”

“Whether you consider the services of independent guide or one through an outfitter and/or fly fishing, specialty shop; is your decision. If the former, you have the benefit of direct one-on-one dialogue; prior to your meeting. If you conduct business with an outfitter and/or shop; either should be adept at matching their guides with the desires and skill-level of the specific client.”

“Guides have dominant and specific talents. Some are patient and competent teachers; others fish-producers with minimal teaching and non-existent, stream-side-partner personalities. Some are naturalists, philosophers, historians, therapists or brilliant conversationalists. Ones that I personally avoid are the “my-way-or-the-highway” types. They must be flexible and receptive to your wishes.”

“Simply, a superlative fly fishing guide or instructor must possess technical and people skills PLUS the ability to clearly and comfortably convey both.”

Frank R. Pisciotta

[Darrin.Deel]

Good stuff Frank...

[bigfly]

Charley, the only time I call a client, is when we worked out in advance that they need to know when "it's happening".
Only once did I turn down a tip, the client was visibly offended, and that's the last effect I want to achieve.
The only reason I weighed in at all, was to say that people shouldn't stress about tips. I don't court them, I don't turn them down.
I'm here to help folks get into fish, period. I give 100% everytime. Tip, or no.
You can see the range of feelings here. Those that need a coach, a naturalist, and those that want you to shut up and row.
No guide can please everyone, all the time. I agree with Frank on this, find the guide that suits you, and go fishing.

Jim

[Mike O]

I'm here to help folks get into fish, period. I give 100% everytime.
Jim

Then you are the type of guide I would hire. Personally, if I knew that a guide gave better service to higher tippers, I would avoid him/her like the plague.

I worked in the restaurant industry, and have seen this behavior first-hand. Trust me, the clients can tell if the waiter, guide, etc. treats people differently based on how much baksheesh was coming their way. It would be harder on a stream, but easy in a restaurant.

just my 2 pence.

[Ralph]

"You can see the range of feelings here. Those that need a coach, a naturalist, and those that want you to shut up and row."

This is exactly why I think people skills are paramount. A guide needs to read his client and act accordingly. Great guides like Bob Lamm, Brant Oswald, and Mike Costello are like chameleons who, within a few minutes have figured out their sports, and have the ability to put on a great trip regardless of the client's needs. The first thing they do is ask the client what THEY expect from the day and from there continually fine-tune their delivery.

Too many guides act like it is their trip and project their needs on the client. I have a friend who spent weeks tying up flies in preparation for a guided trip. The guide refused to let him use them. . . probably for good reason. But the point is the client paid for the day and if using his own flies was part of his enjoyment, the guide should back off from HIS need to catch fish and let the client play his own game.

[amoeba]

Call me stupid(ive been called worse) but I have actualy refused tips before, as politiely as possible. But I often wondered if that was offensive to the client?....
They were situations where we both worked our asses off, but it was just "one of those days".

I have offered big tips for excellent service which was deserved and still refused, because the person's business model was not to accept tips at all. Didn't bother me.....but.....

I have been offered money for helping distressed roadside people; which I have always refused. Most recently - some woman in a parking lot out in the rain with her kids and windows open - turned out the keys had been locked in the trunk. I went home, got some tools, took her car apart and got her keys. It was no big deal -- - - but she (and later, her husband) were real insistent on giving me $5. I finally took it.....but it didn't feel right.

[Charlie Gonzales]

Hey Jim, didnt mean for that to sound like an insult. I try to learn from as many guides as possible, and value everyones opinion.

Every job I have ever had as a kid has always been customer service oriented; from cooking, serving, guiding or even as a tile setter its the smile on the customers face at the end of the day that drives me. If I could do it all for free(which my wife thinks I do) I would, but the world doesnt work that way.

[Bryan Morgan]

Charlie, can I borrow a couple hundred bucks?

[Charlie Gonzales]

Might not be able to do that Bryan, but I could put you on some stripers.

[bigfly]

Charley, I have no idea what you mean about an insult? None taken.
You made my point about being on the water all the time.
Three days recon + three days guiding = pretty much all the time.
Any more time on the water and you won't have a relationship, or clean clothes either.
I don't usually have both, (laundry at night) so I can sneak in another day.

Misconception #4. Guides fish all the time.
A friend called it a while back. He profiled me as a person with a "weakness for wetness".
After catching a bunch of fish, and a few fatties too, I feel the need to be in/on the water more than the need to flog fish.
Once you connect with water, the seasons, flows, and all the life forms, in addition to fish, coming away from the water is close to painful.
That's the reason I guide, "The client needs to fish, I need to be on the water."
It is a beneficial arrangement, for client and guide.
There is a world of mystery down there. It takes a lifetime to get a handle on what's goin' on.
A top notch guide has dedicated his/her life to it, and brings all their life skills to the table.
The treat is when a client learns, executes, and scores!!! The tip is gravy.


Jim

[Packrat]

The $1000/week x 52 weeks formula just doesn't work. I'd like to hear of a guide that actually fishes all year long. Sure it can be done but not very likely. So in reality that $52,000 annually is probably a smaller number. Guides are not in it to make a lot of money I'll guarantee you that.

Do guides fish for the enjoyment of it? You bet they do, I've seen Frank out on the water plenty of times having a good time ;)

Rich Garbarino

[john]

Tipping for me has always been a highly personal issue. I want to walk away from the dock comfortable/confident, whether I'm back the next day with the same guide, or, I'm flying out and may never see the guide again. I want to feel that I was fair, slightly generous, but w/o going overboard. But fair,generous are at my definition.
I do have a question though. Do you take into account the local economy when tipping? This is primarily directed at international trips. For instance, in Belize the average income is somewhere between $2500 and $4000(US) depending on what chart you look at. Guides at Pescador, on AC, are making/can make $50K(US). Their expenses compared to the US, are in some cases(fuel/oil) much higher. Other expenses, it's less than here. Does/should it matter?