Best $ value shopping for fly fishing products?

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

If you were going to buy a new high end fly rod with a high end fly reel and top fly line, basically a complete high end fly fishing outfit, and you live in California where would you buy it?

Just trying to get some good honest feedback so we can stay up to date with what is happening in our market place.

Thanks

[Jay]

To be honest, the internet. I live about 30 minutes from any fly shop and close to an hour away from your place. It is just not worth it to me to make that drive @ 12mpg + my time. I also consider myself a savvy internet shopper and sometimes spend weeks or even months waiting for the perfect deal. I am a carpenter, money is really tight so when I get some that I can put towards gear, I really gotta make it stretch. I realize that might not help you at all, but that is how I shop.

[Mike R]

Hopefully I'd have reputable fly shop that I have done business with before and want to do business with them again. For an expensive purchase like that, assuming I am paying full price, I'd much rather get it with a face to face transaction. But, for buying used/closeout merchandise, I'm looking on the web.

Mike

[Dave E.]

Hi Bill,

Given the limitations of your question, honestly I'd most likely make the drive and buy it from you guys.

Open the question up to top shelf items that, let us say - fluctuate in price from source to source, then it's anybodies guess ( reads: internet ) .
For consumables, lines, tying materials, togs and the like, you'll commonly get first shot at our purchases.

One thing that I'll commend you for is your classifieds. I sold a rod through them a couple of weeks ago and made the exchange in your parking lot. Then marched in to Kiene's with the proceeds from that sale and started trying on new wading boots. Bought a pair too. I just love it when a plan comes together.

Ya' I know, too much information.
Best, Dave

[thepeacockspecial]

honestly, I would buy mine at a fly shop that i have a really good relationship with. Fly shops usually feed you the info you need if you were unable to find anything online. In addition, fly shops know more then most people do on the internet. Included with knowledge, the only negative thing about buying rods from shops, is the price. Some shops overprice their gear... which is probably why some people buy their stuff online.

[koffler]

Bill -

I've seen a lot of shops over the years in different parts of the country and can definitevely say that you have one of the top shops around from a product/variety perspective as well as a nice group of folks working for you. That being said, I'm loyal to your shop BUT I also have a ton of gear so don't buy a lot of new stuff (rod and reel wise where the profit margin is likely higher). The bulk of my purchases are fly tying oriented.

I've got 16+ rods in my closet, no need to buy anymore, although I have sold a few on your classified site and walked into your store and bought a more modern rod (i.e. the XI2 - I love how it casts and commands a line for striper fishing). I've also bought a few reels for family members over the last couple of years. I'm not sure if this answered your original question but I am and always will be loyal to Ross reels. Rods are up for discussion but based on my arsenal the bulk of mine are Sage and they've always been good to me by and large.

You guys are a top shelf shop - I appreciate the online forum you provide whether it be topic specific and equally appreciate your classified category. It's commendable you offer that knowing it could pull away from sales in the short term but I fully believe you get a large part of that in the end - or so I hope. Kudos to Kiene's.

Jason
aka Koffler

[koffler]

I meant to include the following commentary in the previous post.........

Line wise things have gotten so crazy which is no fault of your own. I realize technology (or supposed technology) sells but some lines are now approaching the $70 mark - that appalls me. I'm 36 years old, have been flyfishing since I was 13 years old. Remember the old pink Cortland 333 and even the 444SL; those lines were $30-$35 bucks and could be had up until around the year 2002 (maybe longer - at least for the 444SL). I honestly don't see how the costs of lines can increase at the rate they are today and given I've cast a large majority of lines over the years (the GPX, sage lines, older lines (cortlands), Wullf (sp?) lines, etc) I don't think the model is sustainable for growing the industry - it's almost cost prohibitative.

If nothing else, I definitely treat my lines with greater care, dress them after a session or two of fishing in the hopes I don't have to plunk down a wad of $$ for a line that was likely be similar to something I had a few years back that now has a cost increased by 'x' %. Lord knows the average worker has not seen a salary increase that equates to the increase in line costs. I realize I'm on a soap box but that's my 2.5 cents..........in any event, when I do have to buy a line I'll be headed to Kiene's.

Jason

[Jgoding]

Honestly,

I'd shop around on the net and see if you could match the price. If you have the same products that I'm looking for within a reasonable range I'll get them from you though. I don't buy a lot of equipment but I think I've spent a fair amount on fly tying stuff.

[mike borba]

If by high end you mean $700-800 fly rods and $400 reels, I'm not interested. I can afford them but don't need them. There are plenty of quality rods and reels for half that price. They cast and fish as well as I do. I do buy the best fly lines I can get. I live at least an hour away from any fly shop. so I don't have a "home" fly shop. In the past 5 years I've bought 3 fly rods because I wanted to change from 2 piece to 4 piece rods. All were TFOs. I bought 2 from you and 1 online. All of my reels are over 5 years old. I buy about 1 fly line a year. Of course all of the rods, reels, and lines I but cost the same wherever I buy them, so I try to get them at the closest fly shop to me. I also spend a few $ at fly shops when I travel to fish. I don't need to spend more on gear. I need to spend more time fishing. Mike

[JayDubP]

For a rod and line I will buy at a local flyshing only shop where I can get them fitted to me.

It is probably cheaper to buy from Kiene's than to buy online-- because you will get the exact rod and line combo that match you, your tempo, your style of casting and fishing and the feel you want. Plus they have a try it before you buy it policy.

Self-prescribe what you need and buy it cheap online-- you can end up with several rods in pursuit of the one that really fits you. So buy the right one at a local shop or buy several on your own until you find that right combo.

I can cast and fish with anything, but I am 100% certain that the rod/line I am using provides me the maximum performance with the least effort-- for pennies a fishing day.

[Phil Synhorst]

Hey Bill,

This is a tricky question. Are you wondering about cost; or the value of great advice, testing equipment, and building relationships with people?

Value to me is what I have always gotten when I walk into your shop. I like to get advice from people I trust, and be able to try out different equipment to see what suits me.

For the record, here and there over the years I have bought small items; file, box, shirt; at supposed discount stores or online. Only to come into the shop shortly after that, and see the same or similar item for the same price, or maybe a nominal amount more. :oops::oops:And have always walked out kicking myself in the butt for not spending the money at my local small business, where I've always gotten great service.:oops::oops:

[thepeacockspecial]

If by high end you mean $700-800 fly rods and $400 reels, I'm not interested. I can afford them but don't need them.

exactly how i feel. I do not feel the need to buy a super expensive rod i nthat range. I think most people do not end up buying rods/fly fishing is because the gear is so expensive. For me, if it works.. that is all that matters. I for one am a big fan of TFO. It is not as pricey, and their stuff works great. As for reels, the konic works VERY well too, and it is not as pricy as other reels. I think more people would be interested in fly fishing if gear werent so pricey. More fly fishing addicts = more business. Agree or disagree ?

[mike borba]

As fly fishing consumers we've never had it so good. 20 years ago I bought a "top of the line" fly rod for about $300. The TFOs I've bought in the last five years cost from $150 to $250. They are better rods than the $300 rod, and cost less even after 20 years of inflation. There are plenty of other companies putting out excellent products. Most anglers IMO buy much more reel than they need. I bought an Orvis barstock Battinkill a few years ago (from Kiene's) for a little more than $100. I should include it in my will because I'm sure it will outlive me.

[Mike O]

I would like to buy a Sage for my daughter, as that is her name. That being said, I will definately buy it discounted. Either used on this site, or another, or on sale in a shop. There is no possible way that I am ever going to buy a rod full price. With what I make and what I can spend, all of my rods (mostly Redington) and reels (various lower end models) have been bought on closeout. 2 reels from Kienes, rods from the ISE show, online from local fly shops, and in a brick and mortar Sierra Trading Post at a huge discount.

My fervent wish is that Kiene's would open an online shop with a clearance section, by which I could look at the exact rod from home (Woodland) without driving in, buy it, and pick it up in the store. Other local shops have done this, and I shop online with them sometimes. However, when I am looking for fly tying materials or geegaws, I go to Kiene's first, and usually only. I would love to go first and only to Kiene.com/storecloseouts or whatever if that were an option.

I know that you post these killer deals on this forum, that is how I got great deals on Ross Worldwide Reels and a couple of lines from you, but a picture is nice.

I know this makes me sound like a freakin' cheapskate, but that's my real life situation. Money was tight for me before people started realizing they paid too much for their house.

MAO

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Maodiver,

That is one of the best answers..........at the end of every season all shops can buy up the discontinued products at great prices and put them on close-out.

Thanks

[mikel]

If you were going to buy a new high end fly rod with a high end fly reel and top fly line, basically a complete high end fly fishing outfit, and you live in California where would you buy it?


Bill...to answer that question directly...since Ernie's is closed, probably at your shop.

BUT...as other's have said:

(1) I don't ever see a "high end" outfit in my future that isn't used. For instance, I recently picked up a 2wt Orvis Superfine with BBS2 reel for $200 in excellent condition.

(2) For a new rod I'd be looking at TFO, Echo, Redington and the other brands that have rods of good quality and with solid warrantees under the $200 price point.

When the discounters have rods that are $100 or more off the list price they are hard to pass up, even for those that WANT to support their local fly shops.

Hope this helps you...-Mike

[BillB]

Tough one for me Bill. Since Buz's is gone there are no fly shops in my area. I generally shop on the internet and look for no tax, no shipping. On high end merchandise though I like to see/feel it before purchasing. Therefore, I have to travel to a shop. The last fly shop I was in is yours. When I was looking for Simms waders it was imperative that I first try them on (12-13 lg or 12-13 xl or . . .), so it made sense to travel 180 miles, try them on and get on down to the river. I would be remiss to lay down a large sum of money on a rod I never held/cast.

Many items are priced the same from place to place so I often find myself purchasing items tax free. I am sure that the exorbitant sales tax in California doesn't do your business, or any other business, any favors.

[Mike Churchill]

Bill, I am with Mike Borba and Phil on this one: I have better things to spend my money on than top of the line fly rods. I have bunch of rods I have purchased at lower price points that work just fine. (All purchased from your shop except for a couple bought used in your parking lot and then matched with reels and lines from your shop and the TFO NXT 8/9 package rod that I bought off the internet because you didn't have it in the store.) Among other things, the pain I get every time I think about my Sage DS2 that has been on the bottom of Lake Amador in deep water since 2006 (didn't set it down exactly where I usually do on the after I netted that fish while float tubing) would have been much greater if that had been a high end Sage [for the record, I had actually bought that one at the San Jose Fly Shop when I lived in the Bay Area].

While I live in Folsom and work in downtown Sacto, your shop is definitely not the most conveniently located flyshop for me and I have to make a special 30 minute trip to go there. Which I do when ever I need anything flyfishing related because I appreciate the value I get from shopping there and from this message board. You carry a great inventory, have a friendly, helpful, and knowledgeable staff, competitive prices, and this message board is a tremendous resource for new and experienced flyfishers. I have been in the other shops in town but I don't intend to go back to them for anything so long as you keep your doors open.

I moved to the Sacramento area 5 years ago and immediately both joined one of the local FF clubs and started reading this board. I've met a lot of friends and learned a lot about fishing the local waters from both, but this board has by far been the more valuable of the two. While I only occasionally post, I it almost every day. When I'm stuck working long hours with no days off, I at least get some vicarious fishing in with Ed, Dave, Jay, Hairstack, and the rest.

Now, then, a TFO Clouser rod isn't "high end," but that's what's next on my "gotta have" list. (While I don't have 16 rods yet, I do have an 8/9, an 8, two 7's, two 5's, and two 3's.)

Mike

[RenoLipRipper]

In the past I would have seeked out a small private fly shop. That is were I have boutht the majority of my stuff. I lived in So. Calif. (Anaheim Hills) so I went to Bob Marriots in Buena Park, a store much like yours I assume. Great products, great staff etc.. Bought my XP, Z-Axis, Marriots branded fry rod, and reels.

Bought one Z-Axis at Trout Fitter in Mammoth due to a broken rod on the trip and got a new reel.

Lately I have a friend in Orange County who builds his own rods and those for many others. He has done over 2500 rods for both salt water, and fresh water so I would go through him. I think he does a better job than you can get from a factory rod. Mostly Sage, with some G-Lomis etc.. I have gotten 3 from him. But usually have to wait a bit as he is very busy all the time wrapping rods for lots of people. What started out as a hobby is much more now. Plus he has a full time job and a family of 4.

However, last year I needed a 8# for Pyramid with reel and line. Would have been over $1,000 from a store or my friend in O. C. .

Didn't want to drop that kind of dough, so I went over to Cabella's in Reno. Bought their top of the line rod, (L-Tech) and a RLS reel for $200 + tax and line. It was promo.. AND A NO BRAINER.

Sure I would have liked a new Sage and reel, but this one is getting the job done well.

Don't know if I would buy the top of the line stuff anymore. There are trade offs, but at my level I don't always notice them and the budget being what it is.

I know Marriot's used to or still does have a banner againest their wall thanking customers for purchasing at their store and supporting the small independent shops.

I bought tons of flys there.

Now I might go to stores that have discounted flys (as I don't tie) or now I get most of my flies from my friend who has a conection in Africa. $5-6 for a dozen. Can't be beat. Granted not always as nice as the flies from shops, but for the price and the fact that they do work got go with them most of the time.

Also I know many of the shops get their flys from a 3rd or 4th world country also, but the price is still $1.75 +, so the savings is not being passed on.

But I would buy from my friend in O.C. Calif. if I needed a top of the line new rod, reel, line etc.. But if I did not have this connection would look for the best price on what I wanted and go from there.

I know some of the big box stores sell a ton of kits for about $200 bucks. Most newbies don't have the budget for the high end stuff or the need.

I am in need of a new float tube, and I will probably go to Cabella's for the purchase. I alway check Cabella's first. And due to time being so valuable I don't always check any of my local small shops in the area. I just TRUST that Cabella's is giving me a good deal. They have been great if I have a problem, no hassle return I had on a Hummingbird 140C fish finder, returned it and got a new one. Wouldn't say the staff is always great etc. but I usully have done my research and know what I want before walking in.

Don't feel good about buying on the internet. I usually like to touch and feel the product. I have bought other items, not fly fishing related but had no problems.

Just my long two cents.

If I lived closer to Sact. I would check out your store, I am sure it is a GREAT one, but distance to far.

[590Mike]

Bill great question and thanks for all the service you and the guys have provided over the years. Some time back Alan was showing someone a New Sage LL II 2 piece for the outrageous price of $225.00 I still remember thinking "that's damn near a truck payment" but he assured me the rod was a pleasure to cast, and could really put a fly where I wanted it so I bought some flies and left. Two days later I'm standing in the parking lot with Alan casting this "magic wand" I bought the rod about a month later. I fished that rod for 17 years and still have it I rarely fish the rod lately as I bought a Bradley bamboo 5wt and love it. I have more rods than screwdrivers nowadays but I'm not in construction anymore anyhow.

Now that I'm thinking about it you sold me one of the first Galvan reels that came into the store, and I still have that one also,along with some and OB-3 and a T-6.

Since its too late to make a long story short, but between purchases everyone at the shop has been helpful with fishing reports,directions to spots and advice. Service is why I shop at your store and will continue to shop there.

So again,wait.... what was the question again? Oh yea
I have some "high end " rods I bought from you and also have some "value" rods, 2 of which I bought out of the 20 gallon drum that sat at the end of the rod rack across from the counter. We bought a couple Cortland IM-6 2 piece 3/4 weights for $99. I think they were 7 footers, I need to call my Uncle and get that rod back. Again the guys in the shop said they had a nice action and were priced right. That kind of advice can't be found or had at a discount. Ok again thanks for all the service and help.

[jbird]

I have noticed over the years that a higher percent of novices buy the higher end gear. Many of us bums are just that....bums. We know what kind of equipment will serve our needs and its not necessarily topotheline. We also have a quiver of rods and its alot easier on the wallet to do that with lesser quality equipment.

With that said, If I were a novice and I wanted to get set up and I was serious about getting into the sport, I would go straight to Kienes and have them set me up. I would much rather be talked into a sage and tibor by an expert at a flyshop than by reading online reviews.

Now, if I were to decide right now, with the experience and equipment I already have, to go topotheline, I would absolutely go to a good flyshop. If I was within 2 hours of Kienes, I wouldnt even hesitate to jump in the car.

For me, online is a good place to get an idea for prices. Or if theres not a flyshop in a 200 mile radius.

[Ed Wahl]

If you were going to buy a new high end fly rod with a high end fly reel and top fly line, basically a complete high end fly fishing outfit, and you live in California where would you buy it?

Hey Bill, this may not be a very good place to ask that. Most if not all of us are already loyal customers of yours.

Maybe a board like the sniffer would give you a more unbiased answer?

Ed

[590Mike]

Jbird makes a great point one of the kids friends went to a local "sporting goods" store to get into fly fishing he left with a Redington 8wt as an "all purpose rod" that might be a good reason to go to the right place for the right equipment.

[troutbm]

I bought my last high end outfit online from a reputable shop in Oregon because I didn't have to pay any sales tax. When you spend well over a grand that is quit a savings.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I bought my last high end outfit online from a reputable shop in Oregon because I didn't have to pay any sales tax. When you spend well over a grand that is quit a savings.

I really can't blame anyone for wanting to save almost $100 per thousand on major purchases.

If you are in this industry you can buy this stuff got 50 to 75% off so we really don't have to worry about where to buy fly fishing equipment.

Actually our 8.25 to 10% sales tax in CA is really hurting many retailers in this state.

Those who don't buy "new, high end fly fishing equipment" never have to worry about all that CA sales tax on fly gear.

I heard on the TV news in the last month or so about them complaining in general about the amount of business going out of state because of our high state sales tax. I wonder if they will change the laws about that some day?

I think that most don't really worry about the sales tax on the sub-$100 purchases so maybe that is what we need more of in our shop?

We have noticed a larger trend of many customers coming in and casting rods and trying on waders and boots but not buying them. One can assume they are mostly going online after they get it figured out to get the lowest price.

After 45 years I have lots of experience in these matters. 40 years ago at a big independent sporting goods store I worked at I was the reloading department manager and buyer. People would come in and I would spend an hour our more with them working out all the details of what they needed for a complete reloading system for rifle, piston and shotgun. I would even write it all down for them just in case I was not here when they came back to only find out most of then were going down the street to a big discount store and buying it all there at 10% lower prices. Nothing is ever new.........

I do believe small business is going way in America, faster than ever, so eventually it might all be online and out of state.

__________________________________________________ ______________________

All that said we are doing really well, even in these times.

I think the baby boomers out there who are on a vengeance to enjoy their retirement years are helping pay the rent right now.

According to the major reps in our industry they feel Sacramento is one of the best places to have a fly shop after watching several down turns in the past few decades.

We are lucky we have a good clientele here in town who have come in and supported us for many, many years now so thanks to all of them.

[CapitalFishr]

I think you hit the nail on the head with the sub $100 items... I routinely buy flies, fly material, lines, etc. but bargain shop the internet for higher end purchases. Although companies like TFO, Redington, etc. have really been putting out some great "value" products.

[BillB]

A while back wasn't there a question on a state tax form that asked "have you purchased any items over the internet without paying sales tax"? Maybe we shouldn't be discussing this in pubic!

As I understand it one of Circuit City's downfalls was that people would come in and look over the merchandise and go home to buy it for less over the internet. One important ingredient is left out of this scenario, service.

When I was trying on my waders I was confident that you were giving me the proper advice as to the fit and level of wader I was about to purchase. Though I could have saved about 10% (tax) I couldn't justify the time spent on the sale and/or the service, which is something hard to find these days. Besides Bass Pro Shops had the same wader for $30 more! By the way, I love my waders and the fit is superb! Thanks.

[Scott V]

If you were going to buy a new high end fly rod with a high end fly reel and top fly line, basically a complete high end fly fishing outfit, and you live in California where would you buy it?

Just trying to get some good honest feedback so we can stay up to date with what is happening in our market place.

Thanks

I can't afford a high end outfit and even if I could I wouldn't buy one, I love my TFO Pro's I got from you, all 4 of them.

[bonneville54]

If you were going to buy a new high end fly rod with a high end fly reel and top fly line, basically a complete high end fly fishing outfit, and you live in California where would you buy it?

Just trying to get some good honest feedback so we can stay up to date with what is happening in our market place.

Thanks

Bill,

If we're all smart consumers, fly fishing or not, we should buy from the place with the best value....which, of course, means different things to different people.

I've bought one rod online....a closeout rod from Sierra Trading Post. (Turns out, I don't like it - a Winston Vapor 4wt) I like to try rods before buying, and need the expert feedback to make the right choice, more so if I'm shelling out the big bucks. Reels...not so much.

However, I really enjoy shopping online....I've bought nearly all my Christmas presents that way. And I'd love it if Kienes had an online retail presence, perhaps most for the accessories.....I live in Grass Valley, so driving to your shop takes a wee bit of gas.

Given an online choice between The Fly Shop or Cabela's or Leland... I know I'd choose Kienes. You guys have earned it. But, I'll bet it's expensive to set up....properly. So much info to convey, for example. Interestingly enough, I don't think I've made a purchase decision based on sales tax, but I may be the odd one here.

FWIW, I dislike The Fly Shops site, find it difficult to shop.....Cabela's is easy, Leland too.

I don't know if that helps or not. It's a fragmented retail environment out there, made tougher by the economy.

[DFrink]

I am always trying to find the best deal for my money. Honestly when I first got into fly fishing I was a person who would test things in the store, and then buy online. Two things have changed my opinion on that matter. For one I like to suppport small local business. Second and most important is for someone like me who is fairly new to flyfishing (almost 4 years now) and who gets so much "free" knowledge, advise, etc. from this board I think that it's only fair to be willing to pay a little more (sales tax for instance) to the shop that supplies this forum. Lets face it, the big retail sporting stores just don't offer this kind of knowledge or service, and without it I would be catching a lot less fish.

[Rodney D.]

About 20 years ago when my wife and I were newlyweds and money was much tighter, I had just started getting into flyfishing and all my gear was garage sale and hand-me-downs. My wife wanted to get me a new "better quality" flyrod for Christmas. A friend told her about your shop and she went in to look for a rod. She has no fishing knowledge (other than being a great wife and listening to my stories) so she would have probably bought anything they wanted to sell her at almost any price but the staff directed her to the "sale priced" rods and she walked out with a great Lamiglas 1000 series 6 weight rod that was on close-out for under $100.00. She loves to shop and she said the people in Kienes' shop were super nice and treated her great...earning a customer for life. Kiene's prices are competitive and thier service is fantastic, that's why you are still open. Thanks for having a great store.

[Darian]

When I consider making a high end or lesser value purchase of anything (other than houses or auto's), I almost always buy when the item I'm interested in is on sale and don't consider the amount of sales tax in making that purchase. By the time I make the purchase, I've already done my homework. Now I want to eyeball the item and, where possible, try it out.

That being said, I've been contributing a portion of my retirement benefits to Kiene's shop so that Bill/Marilyn will have a good retirement of their own. :nod:

[wineslob]

I'm a bad person to ask the original question. I'm still using the Sage seconds blank "kit" I bought at Bills probably 20 years ago. Same with the Columbia vest I have. Eventhough it looks like CRAP and is falling apart, I'm going to sew it back up, because, like most fly "stuff" I cannot afford it anymore.
I can't fathom spending 200+ $$ on reels, rods ect.....ya I know that's the "reality" now, but I don't like it.
My last reel was/is a Fenwick that was $75 on sale, the reason I bought it, and I had to think about that for awhile. I'm glad I did buy it, it's been the best reel I've owned so far.