Size/Quality vs Numbers vs Drive Time: A Musing

[SHigSpeed]

So, last year when I started flyfishing, I went rubber trout hunting whenever I could. Hit the plants like clockwork. Pretty good stuff to get the 'ol confidence up on the new lifestyle.

This year, I've been steering more towards quality fish. Whereas last year I was at Fuller, Wrights, and Mather, this year I've been fishing Davis, Frenchman, Martis, and the Yuba.

Now that the "lunker" lakes are starting to become inaccessible to me, I had the chance to fish a local put 'n take lake a couple of times within a week of the plant and I had a 20+ fish day and a 30+ fish day with Fish/Hour being 5.5 FPH and 6.2 FPH respectively. Granted there was nothing over 13", but on a 4 wt from a float tube it was damn fun. That and with an average hit:net "bag ratio" of around 55%, I got nearly double the takes or LDRs of the actual catch. The tug is the drug, right?

Contrast that to my most recent trip to Frenchman where I caught "only" 11 fish. Fat, feisty fish from one "merely 13 inches" to 18 inches of holdover fury. That translated into a 2 FPH day with a slightly worse 48% bag ratio. (My recent worst BR also came at Frenchman the trip before where I scored a miserable 20% and 0.6 FPH. My trip to Davis, though I scored a bunch of GOOD fish, also had a dismal BR of 31%!). Sure it was great fun to pull in a 16 inch average fish 11 times, and get hit a total of 23 times, but I got bumped 3 times as many times in water I drove 40 minutes to instead of 2.5 hours!

I guess what I'm just putting out there is that there are different kinds of good days. I had a HOOT fishing for planters, catching all of my fish in the same time that it would've taken just to DRIVE to and back from Davis or Frenchman. That said, the healthy 'bows from either of those lakes make the fish I caught recently look like bait.

Would I drive 2.5 hours to catch 30 planters? Probably not. The question then becomes, what would it take for you to drive 2.5 hours? :) 5 16 inch fish? Not sure, though the lure of 20 16 inch fish is damn strong. The possibility that you'll catch a 20"er in the mix? Gravy! Just one 20"er and nothing else? Don't know. On the fence about that one... Though nutcases from will drive insane distances in search of steelies, right?

Anyway, I guess there is no right answer, and it's different for everyone. I'd just like to hear what your (collective) thoughts are on this topic. Maybe I'll come up with some sort of formula, a "satisfaction quotient" so-to-speak, that takes into account drive time, FPH, BR, average size, biggest fish, wild vs. plant vs. holdover, and other intangibles such as weather, scenery, dry vs wet fly, sight fishing, 20:20 club fish, camaraderie, etc. that could predict how successful I feel at the end of the day. Heck, maybe I'll do a dissertation on this for my PhD in Recreational Fishing! :)

Okay, discuss...

_SHig

[Jay]

I wont drive 20 minutes for planters.

Ill drive 2 hours, hike 2 hours for 15 small fish.

Ill drive 4 hours, hike an hour or two for 1 or more big fish.

[Troutstalker55B]

Whatever it takes to wet a line, to hunt rising heads, explore new creeks,
to be surrounded by mother nature, to feel the weather, and to fish with friends old and new. That about sums it up for me. There are days when the fish gods smile upon us brightly, when you can do no wrong. Then there are the days when your scratching your head muttering "what am I doing wrong"? You take the good with the bad and keep casting!

Jon.

[michaeln]

Wow, way too many numbers and too much analysis for me. I just like to go fishing.

[Charlie Gonzales]

How do you only target small fish? How do you know your only gonna catch 13"ers?

Sorry Shig, had to throw that out there from a previous thread where some geniuses tried to do it to me.

Carry on.

[jbird]

Wow, way too many numbers and too much analysis for me. I just like to go fishing.


I concure.

[jayclarkflyfishing]

Whatever it takes to wet a line, to hunt rising heads, explore new creeks,
to be surrounded by mother nature, to feel the weather, and to fish with friends old and new. That about sums it up for me. There are days when the fish gods smile upon us brightly, when you can do no wrong. Then there are the days when your scratching your head muttering "what am I doing wrong". You take the good with the bad and keep casting!

Jon.

Amen Jonny!This post hits the nail on the head.Couldn't say it any better.

Jay

[SHigSpeed]

How do you only target small fish? How do you know your only gonna catch 13"ers?

Sorry Shig, had to throw that out there from a previous thread where some geniouses tried to do it to me.

Carry on.

<LOL> I don't target them, I just know that for the most part that's all that's there. Sure there are no doubt a few 18"-22" fish in Fuller, but they're few and very far between. Damn geniuses! :) You know it if I'm at Davis or Milton, I'm certain I can get into fish, but I'm staying away from the schoolies and switching up to get into the more "mature" fish.



Wow, way too many numbers and too much analysis for me. I just like to go fishing.

Sorry, can't help it. I'm an engineer and numbers are my gig. I have a fishing log and I update it with as much junk as I can, which gets my mind crankin'.

One thing that I didn't mention as a variable was "character building" factor. Some of my most memorable days are skunks or poor showings. My bluebird to blizzard skunk at Heenan and the recent Martis near-death adventure. Those are fun times!

_SHig

[Hairstacker]

Sorry, can't help it. I'm an engineer and numbers are my gig. I have a fishing log and I update it with as much junk as I can, which gets my mind crankin'.

We each enjoy this great hobby in our own way. :)

For me it's fairly simple . . . since I live next door to the Delta, I don't have to go far for size or numbers. But, I'm willing to drive over an hour for good company or scenery.

[Mike R]

How do 16+ hour drives to steelhead rivers (where you probably won't catch ANYTHING) fit into all this? Guess it kinda explains why that forum is so nuts.

But, in all honestly, if I equated hours driven (or flown, or hiked, or boated) with what I might catch, I might as well take up bowling. My $0.02.

Mike

[michaeln]

One thing that I didn't mention as a variable was "character building" factor.

Ahh, the CBF. How do you measure it, Goodness per square hectare (G/H2)? That's the way I do it in my logs.

[Dave E.]

How far will I travel for a planter?
If any of the circumstances that I've described below count, then I've traveled to other countries for them.

When I think about it, in a way most every fish I catch from early October to early spring could be considered a stocker or the progeny of planters. For instance I fish the Louies for Stripers. Do sucked up and pumped out fish of any size, from somewhere else count as planters? Or do only, purposely and or recently stocked fish count?
I fly fish the larger central valley, Motherlode and lower level Sierra lakes several days a week during the colder months for Landlocked Salmon, Koke's, Rainbows the odd Brown and Black Bass. Some are recent plants, progeny of plants, others simply made it through the onslaught to maturity. In other words, I really don't make distinctions between planted fish and the natural production of non-native species. I'm there for the fun of it. Heck for that matter, none of the places I'm talking about are natural. They're all manmade impoundments, with manmade fisheries, in many cases they've got a manmade forage base too.

I was out on Camanche yesterday and noticed as I drove in, an entry on their stocking update board, that they'd dumped a whole slough of ( if memory serves ) 1 to 3 lb. Florida Strain in the lake not to long ago. Just wondering aloud here, but do you suppose that when the tourney guys head for the weigh in, they give much thought as to whether or not they've got a mixed bag of stocker's and natural production bass in the live-well? Does the prize money reflect the difference? Would their sense of satisfaction be diminished after a win? ........See what happens when you spend to much time counting down heads, the mind wanders.

Anyway, as with your post, this isn't meant as an indictment of anybodies angling, it's just an observation of what lives in the waters that I find myself fishing.

Babbling on, Dave

[gene goss]

Hey Shig Pymramid Lake is a 3hr drive in good weather....but its better to fish this lake in bad weather.....you can catch the numbers if your into counting, or that 15lbs cuttroat if your in the right place at the right time......here's something to think about if your into lunker trout fishing in public recreation waters......Upper Klamath Lake in Oregon (this is more than a 3hr drive) support an entire fishery of wild, native trout....hatchery trout have failed in the past due to a disease organism present within the lake....3-6 lbs is common....10-17 lbs are still present....there is nothing like hooking a very big wild fish.

[dbrosier]

I have a simple rule-of-thumb I call my "Parity Rule." I won't drive round trip for more hours than I get to fish.

If the stream is an hour away, then I've got to have a four hour window for fishing and driving.
If the drive to the stream uses up a day, then I need a four day window.

[SHigSpeed]

I love this discussion. No hating, just a nice BS session.

As for my initial intended meaning of "planters", I envisioned 9"-11" DFG FOB(T?) rainbows. I guess that can also be stretched to mean the 9#-11# Amador/Caples/Camanche mutoids as well.

Keep 'em coming!

_SHig

[epzamora]

there are trouties bigger than 12 inches in california? holy cow! i often drive 2.5 hours one way to hit my sierra streams/rivers and often, i catch only a handful of under 11 inch fish. i'm doing this all wrong! :-)

eric
fresno, ca.

[mems]

Aloha, I know you are talking trout, but my motto is one good fish. I would much rather spend the entire day and catch one 10lb bonefish than 10 1lb bonefish. They are all fun, but it is the big ones, especially the ones that get away, that you remember and keep you coming back fro more. Mems.

[ycflyfisher]

I'd say you're off to a pretty successful start for someone that just started flyfishing. I think following the tanker fish around on stillwaters isn’t a bad strategy for a newbie since fishing stillwaters encourages development of a more proficient casting stroke more so than small stream fishing. I wouldn’t let anyone convince you that your being too analytical or too bodycount oriented if that’s what floats your boat. It’s always better to be lucky than good, but the anglers that tend to chase bodycounts are usually the ones that catch more fish, more consistently.

[Charlie S]

I don't count fish. I just like to fish.

[troutbm]

For me planted trout mean nothing. Every single trip I make is to chase wild trout. That is why I rarely fish stillwater. Come on now shig, Its all about wild trout in moving water on a dry fly. That is flyfishing ! Of course flyfishing is art and theres no right or wrong way for an artist to creative his or her own art. Everyone who flyfishes alot tends to develope there own style so just do what you like doing.

[jbird]

here's something to think about if your into lunker trout fishing in public recreation waters......Upper Klamath Lake in Oregon (this is more than a 3hr drive) support an entire fishery of wild, native trout....hatchery trout have failed in the past due to a disease organism present within the lake....3-6 lbs is common....10-17 lbs are still present....there is nothing like hooking a very big wild fish.

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!! Is it spring yet??!

[andanb]

I fish year round as much as I can approx. 100 times a year. So I love to fish whatever is going on and I appreciate all the different types of fishing.

Winter means...trout in places like Baum, Amador, Putah (not near the spawning beds), Pyramid, Steelhead rivers when I can, delta stripers, skwala dries on the Yuba.

Spring means...Delta largemouth, trout on rivers not blown out i.e. swinging streamers in the Yuba, shad, river stripers, steelhead when I can, the lower Sac.

Summer means...Dry fly fishing in the Sierras...I know everybody and their brother likes to Nymph (I can't stand it more than a couple of times a year...you don't have to convince me that you can catch more and bigger fish I get it, but if I want bigger fish that much I'll go catch stripers.) The best fish I caught this year was an 19" brown (measured) caught over 8000' on a dry fly. I replay that whole afternoon in my mind over and over again...good day! I catch lots of big fish, thats not what it is about. Top water bass in the delta on those stinking hot days...the evenings are magic.

Fall means...Fish everywhere! Stripers and largemouth in the delta top water...subsurface it is on! Trout everywhere trying to eat anything and everything in sight. Steelhead when I can.

I think it is a mistake to limit yourself to one kind of ...wild... fish, and one kind of technique...its kind of like the kid in Pokemon said..."gotta catch 'em all". (Who would have ever believed you would have read a Pokemon reference on this board?)

[Reno Flytyer]

"For me planted trout mean nothing. Every single trip I make is to chase wild trout. That is why I rarely fish stillwater. Come on now shig, Its all about wild trout in moving water on a dry fly. That is flyfishing ! Of course flyfishing is art and theres no right or wrong way for an artist to creative his or her own art. Everyone who flyfishes alot tends to develope there own style so just do what you like doing."

HUH? It is, it isn't?

RFT

[Rick J]

it is no longer about numbers for me. This is obvious when looking at all my trips after steelhead when I have come up "empty" but I can't think of a trip when I have not enjoyed it.

For trout, I mainly target spring creeks though I do enjoy fishing lakes such as Davis especially during damsel migrations and blood midge hatches. I have been known to spend over an hour or two trying to hook a single fish on a spring creek and if I get it, it is gold, and if I don't I still love the hunt!!

[Hairstacker]

"For me planted trout mean nothing. Every single trip I make is to chase wild trout. That is why I rarely fish stillwater. Come on now shig, Its all about wild trout in moving water on a dry fly. That is flyfishing ! Of course flyfishing is art and theres no right or wrong way for an artist to creative his or her own art. Everyone who flyfishes alot tends to develope there own style so just do what you like doing."

HUH? It is, it isn't?

RFT

Let me clear that up for you: it's a firm maybe. :lol:

Other possibilities:

1. Fly fishing is dries for wild trout and then there's other things that folks do and they're ok too.

2. Or, dries for wild trout is the ultimate fly fishing for me but fly fishing is defined in the eyes of the rodholder (aka artist) and they're ok too.

3. Or, dries for wild trout is fly fishing and there are different ways to go about it and they're all ok, as long as it's still dries for wild trout.

4. Or all of the above and who said it had to be logical? :lol:

p.s. I suspect he meant #2. :D

[Reno Flytyer]

Hairstacker...well, at first I agreed with you about #2, but then #3 jumped out and seemed to be the clearer choice, so I read the original post over again, read your analysis (for which I am very grateful) again, and have decided, yeah, right. Now I've got it...maybe.
RFT

[Ed Wahl]

I guess I'm just way out in left field.

Fly fishing for me isn't art. (you know this if you've seen me cast;) )

It's fishing.

Anything beyond that to me is getting way too pretentious.

I've fished since I was a little kid, this is just another way of going about it.

I don't mind driving to Seco, Fuller, or Red for planters. Especially when the wife puts in an order for a fish dinner.

Those big planters they stock for the derby at Seco smoke up very nice.

I've driven 6 hrs, then hiked another 6 for some small but very special fish. Many times.

There's very little about the outdoors that I don't love (mosquitos) and fishing seems to fit a particular notch for me. Especially when it's done in the high country.

Ed

[Mike O]

If there are fish I will go. Time/Distance are relatively secondary to that. If I don't have time, I go closer, if I do have time, I go further.

I think that for me it is less about how far I drive, and more about experiencing new waters, or getting time in on more familiar waters. I have driven many times for hours to try out something new, sometimes even giving up the "sure thing" (be it stockers or wild ones).

I once traveled to Idaho, passed on fishing Silver Creek, and drove up into the mountains looking for more isolated fishing. I would rather catch 1 fish on a stream with only my buddy and I fishing it, than go fish shoulder to shoulder with a crowd. This is why I fish a different part of Hat Creek than those who hit Baum "Lake" or Powerhouse Riffle.

Just my random birdwalk for the day

[bigfly]

Since I've read fly fishing originated with the soft hackle on the swing, I don't think dry fly is "it",any more than streamer or bobber fishing is "it".
Humans seem to need excessive structure to live (longest caster, biggest fish, most fish, wild or introduced, still water, moving water, logs, farthest traveled, best rod, dries, bobber, etc.) I came to this sport for the challenge of learning a "new" way to fish. One related to fooling fish with all kinds of fakey food. Numbers, or size is a function of paying attention and practicing a lot. Now days, for me, guiding is a variation on call pocket pool. Saying out loud, "a fish on this drift by that rock". Anybody can blind fish, (bobber or dry) but for me it's a bigger thrill to "call a fish" every time. But that's just my structure.

[WhipperSnapper]

I live in San Jose, so for me it's a 4 hour drive for small ones and big ones... I'd rather catch 10 12-13 inchers all day than 2 or 3 18-20 inchers.

[Hairstacker]

I live in San Jose, so for me it's a 4 hour drive for small ones and big ones... I'd rather catch 10 12-13 inchers all day than 2 or 3 18-20 inchers.

Well, now that's interesting 'cause I'm just the opposite -- I'd rather catch 2 or 3 18-20 inchers than 10 12-13 inchers all day. :lol: Might be a good poll topic. :-k

[WhipperSnapper]

Well, now that's interesting 'cause I'm just the opposite -- I'd rather catch 2 or 3 18-20 inchers than 10 12-13 inchers all day. :lol: Might be a good poll topic. :-k

It's because I like action. Yeah, I like just being out there, but driving 3-4 hours I like to get into some fish. Hell, if I just liked being out there, then I would drive 30 minutes to the Santa Cruz mountains and fish the San Lorenzo river... Where the best I can expect is just being out there.

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

This is all good stuff & reinforces that we who participate in this sport have specific likes & dislikes; fresh/warm/salt, stream/surf/deep water/lakes, dry/wet tarpon/bones/trout/bass/salmon etc.etc. Essentially it is all relative. Since I mostly freshwater fly fish for trout or steelhead; I can only speak for myself relative to my persoanl preferences.

Below, IMO, is a good example of the natural progression of a fly angler (not sure where I first heard this):

1st Phase-----------------------Numbers; more the better
2nd Phase-----------------------Size; the bigger the better
3rd/Final Phase------------------Quality of the Experience*

* "a total experience" (my tag-line on my 1st brochure in 1984)

Frank R. Pisciotta

[Fly Guy Dave]

Well, my big thing is wild native trout. Sometimes I've driven hours and then hiked (or backpacked) for a few hours more to catch just a few six inch trout. Of course it might be a rare subspecies, one was even thought to be extinct, but it's still worth it to me. Like others have said: it's the experience. But it's also the research it took to find out where they are and the success of finding and catching them once you are there. It's not about size or numbers with me at all. But we all have our own "thing" about FF that floats our boat.

Cheers!

--FlyGuy (Dave)