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Bill Kiene semi-retired
11-26-2009, 10:41 AM
By Frank Galusha

Surveys still underway on the Klamath and Trinity Rivers for carcasses of dead salmon or evidence of spawning beds seem to imply both rivers had ample supplies of fish this fall despite a poor harvest on the Trinity by recreational anglers and complaints of excessive netting by the Yurok and Hoopa Tribes.

One could conclude by the figures released on November 23 by the Arcata Office of the Fish & Wildlife Service (AFWO) that the recreational anglers may have been napping while the salmon took advantage of the moonlight and swam upriver quickly, perhaps when the nets were not out, or fewer nets were in place.

Dave Hilleman, spokesman for the Yurok Tribe told MyOutdoorBuddy, “the Tribe’s commercial quota was met on September 4. Prior to that time nets were out only five days each week and on each of those days there was a ten-hour night-time break when the nets were withdrawn.”

If the full moons during the first weeks of both September and October were accompanied by clear skies, the fish could have avoided both the anglers and the nets. While there is no doubt the recreational anglers got the short end of the stick. Whatever the reason, there is at least a good chance the escapement goal of 40,700 fish on the K/T system will be met.

Well-known Trinity guides such as Steve Huber of Junction City told MyOutdoorBuddy he could remember when it was not uncommon for recreational anglers to catch several fall-run Chinook per trip. He has said he wants to see the escapement goal assured before any large scale netting or fishing takes place.

Hilleman noted that this was not the first time recreational anglers didn’t fare well on the Trinity. He was also not surprised to learn the survey figures were as good as had been expected. “We can’t be sure until the counting is completed and the data is adjusted appropriately.”

Most assuredly, the Tribes, particularly the Hoopa, did not take 90 percent of the Trinity’s fall Chinook as claimed by one online source. That premature exaggeration was repeated by other major media outlets. According to Mike Orcutt, Hoopa Tribal Fisheries Manager, the Hoopa had taken about 4,000 of their 6,000-fish quota as of the first week of November.

The redd count on the Trinity (in Reaches 1-10) exceeded that counted in any one of the years 2002-2008, according to preliminary data released jointly on Monday by AFWO, the CA DFG, the Yurok Tribal Fisheries Program, the Hoopa Valley Tribal Fisheries Department and the Shasta-Trinity National Forest.



Figure 1. Survey reaches of the main stem Trinity River Redd Survey from Lewiston Dam to Weitchpec.

About 3400 redds had been counted with a couple weeks of counting still to go. Assuming it takes one hen and at least one male to fertilize a redd, and discounting for other factors such as the presence of spring-run fish, at least 5,000 fish made it upriver. The actual number could be higher since more than one male often tries to fertilize the eggs. The data are still considered preliminary and need to be adjusted post-season for estimated contribution by Coho salmon, hatchery and wild Chinook salmon.

Reaches 1-10 are from Lewiston Dam downstream to Cedar Flat and do not include redds in the tributaries. The cumulative number of redds observed in Reaches 12-14 as of November 20, 2009 ranks third among the years 2002-2008. Reach 11 is not surveyed due to extreme whitewater (Burnt Ranch Gorge). The figures and this data can be reviewed at http://www.fws.gov/arcata/


Klamath redd counts third highest in 17-years

The carcass and redd counts released on November 23 for the main stem of the Klamath River are “comparable to the last few years,” according to surveys conducted jointly by the AFWO, the Karuk Tribe of California (KTOC), the Yurok Tribal Fisheries Program (YTFP), and USGS Fort Collins Science Center.

According to AFWO, both surveys began the week of October 12, 2009 and will continue until the first week of December. Weekly carcass surveys are conducted by AFWO and YTFP crews from Iron Gate Dam to the Shasta River confluence. Weekly redd surveys are being conducted by AFWO and KTOC crews from the Ash Creek confluence to the Indian Creek confluence at Happy Camp.

A survey notation states: -- After six weeks of surveys we are seeing numbers of carcasses comparable to the last few years. Based on this past week’s catch and the continued observation of some ‘zombie’ salmon (the swimming dead), we will likely conduct surveys for two more weeks. Redd counts are the third highest (only one less than second highest) we’ve seen in the 17-year history of this project. The data and figures can be reviewed at the above site.

This article will be updated as more input is received from the agencies, tribes, guides and anglers. -- FG

Dabalone
11-26-2009, 12:24 PM
Thanks Mr. Kiene, I was always skeptical of the reports from USA fishings inside source and total accuracy. No doubt their intentions are good but they seem very representative of a commercial fishing industry including the commercial sport fishing sector both of which are being heavily impacted by the closure of salmon fishing. Understandably they would be sensitive to the taking of any salmon by Indian tribes and any inappropriate activity could easily be blown out of proportion. My two cents.

Enjoy your holiday!

mr. 3 wt.
11-27-2009, 09:33 AM
I have a hard time believing this letter. I also had a hard time believing USA Fishing's quotes too. I bet the real truth is somewhere in the middle leaning a little towards the USA side of things. Don't believe everything you read. As far as just simple observations, having fished the trinity dozen + times a year for the last dozen years, this year seems to have a poor, below average run. Just my simple observations.

Frank Pipgras
11-27-2009, 08:21 PM
I hope he is right but I was on the Trinity for two days in mid November with a guide who is on the river every day. He has seen very few salmon and in two days we say only 2-3 salmon.

wjorg
11-28-2009, 07:16 AM
Fox guarding the hen house. Ive been on that river, seen those nets and every fish Ive seen wider than the net hole has net scars.

Go paint the pretty picture of indians and dfg agents dancing around the hatchery.

JayDubP
11-29-2009, 11:11 AM
I am also skeptical of this letter and of all the USA fishing articles.

Especially when Sacramento is trying to get voters to approve "Water Bonds" in what may end up being 2 bond issues and over $20 Billion total.

Not the first time we would see a lot of rosy results while politicians are trying to grab something from us.

shawn kempkes
11-29-2009, 01:14 PM
Having seen how they do redd surveys I dont buy what they are selling. The crews get lazy and count stuff that shouldn't be counted and don't count things that should.The guys below are doing spawning surveys in water that has less than 6 inches of visibility. I saw them count fish that werent there. The tribal guys are finacially motivated more fish on the redds equals more net days which equals more money in their wallets.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/fishhawk1/IMG_0630.jpg

Dabalone
11-29-2009, 03:35 PM
Having seen how they do redd surveys I dont buy what they are selling. The crews get lazy and count stuff that shouldn't be counted and don't count things that should.The guys below are doing spawning surveys in water that has less than 6 inches of visibility. I saw them count fish that werent there. The tribal guys are finacially motivated more fish on the redds equals more net days which equals more money in their wallets.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/fishhawk1/IMG_0630.jpg

My position is do whats best for the salmon, so its without taking any sides I ask this question. How could you know they were counting fish that were not there? Could you explain better what you saw that made you certain this was happening?

shawn kempkes
11-29-2009, 04:55 PM
My position is do whats best for the salmon, so its without taking any sides I ask this question. How could you know they were counting fish that were not there? Could you explain better what you saw that made you certain this was happening?

1. There is one more guy not pictured walking down the middle of the gravel bar not counting fish.

2 you cant tell by the picture the water that the guy is standing in is very swift. So swift it is hard walk there. Not typically a place fish would spawn.

3 The temp was about 90 degrees when I took the pictures. On a glacial system that goes out of shape it is not conducive to seeing fish.

4 The spring salmon run on this river was almost non existant last year because the tribe over harvested the run.

Dabalone
11-29-2009, 06:44 PM
Ok, so you are saying they are in an a area where fish should not be spawning and or they could not see them if they were. I still don't understand and you didn't explain how you know for a fact they were counting non existent fish. If its an assumption you should state that.

shawn kempkes
11-29-2009, 07:37 PM
Ok, so you are saying they are in an a area where fish should not be spawning and or they could not see them if they were. I still don't understand and you didn't explain how you know for a fact they were counting non existent fish. If its an assumption you should state that.

My friend and I watched them mark a spot with surveyors tape. There were zero spawning fish present. We sat and watched the spot for a while.

Frank Alessio
11-29-2009, 07:53 PM
I believe a Carcass Survey is just that... They count Dead or almost dead fish.. They are then Hacked to pieces with a machette so they are not re-counted. They are conducted by Department of Water resources.....

MarcP
11-30-2009, 05:50 PM
Carcass surveys are conducted in CA by several different agencies; I participated in one this last summer. Carcass surveys are capable of producing fairly accurate data on spawning populations. Often the carcasses are initially marked, usually with a tag, and then chopped if recaptured on a subsequent survey period. Using a mark recapture method like this allows for the calculation of the number of missed carcasses based on the recapture rate. As long as effort stays relatively constant throughout the entire survey then a fairly accurate estimate can be made of the spawning population.

I have not participated in a redd survey and have some reservations as to the accuracy of the information obtained by them, specifically old redds being counted and things that are not redds being counted. I think that this type of survey is much more subjective and therefore the data is not as reliable.

Just my opinion,

Marc P.

ycflyfisher
12-01-2009, 04:23 PM
Carcass surveys are conducted in CA by several different agencies; I participated in one this last summer. Carcass surveys are capable of producing fairly accurate data on spawning populations. Often the carcasses are initially marked, usually with a tag, and then chopped if recaptured on a subsequent survey period. Using a mark recapture method like this allows for the calculation of the number of missed carcasses based on the recapture rate. As long as effort stays relatively constant throughout the entire survey then a fairly accurate estimate can be made of the spawning population.

I have not participated in a redd survey and have some reservations as to the accuracy of the information obtained by them, specifically old redds being counted and things that are not redds being counted. I think that this type of survey is much more subjective and therefore the data is not as reliable.

Just my opinion,

Marc P.

Agree with what you posted in regards to two capture carcass surveys.

ycflyfisher
12-01-2009, 04:26 PM
There’s a whole lot of speculation and disinformation that may be applicable in other places and under other circumstances that certainly isn’t applicable to the Trinity in this thread. The TRMU of the USFS conducts the surveys in the upper reaches of the Trinity. The TRMU has no motivation, financial or otherwise, to fudge the survey numbers up or down. The suggestion that the Hoopa may somehow be “padding” the overall counts because it may occur elsewhere is rather absurd IMO if one actually looks at the data, and considers that the reaches the tribe monitors are less than 10% of the cumulative total. The tribe does assist in the upriver counts on occasion but I can’t imagine that they did so this year to any appreciable degree with the extremely low flows, and only maybe 3 days or so this season where turbidity was an issue.

Guess I’ve got a couple questions for the people that seem to want to believe the USA site:

1- What is it about the data in particular that you find questionable?

2- How does one who actually believes the agenda advanced by the USA site that the tribe is decimating the abundance reconcile the fact that the other indicator of escapement (hatchery returns) to date are up close to 20% of final returns for ’08 and over 2007?