Flatwings ??

[David Lee]

As in the East Coast style of Striper fly .

Anyone tying them ?

Anyone fish them ??

I have a half-dozen or so under my belt , haven't landed any fish on them yet . They swim and breath great underwater , but all of mine foul when tied on regular-shank hooks (going to try to do some the EC-254 Seaguard 1/0 next ....) . Wondering what eye options are out there since I'm fresh outta Jungle Cock (as in never had any) and think mylar eyes look kinda funny on such elegant bugs .


Just curious as to everyone's opinions on them .....

David

[Bob Scheidt]

First impression is I would miss most strikes, as the fish would hit it somewhere other than the very head of the fly, but obviously this isn't so, or the east coast guys wouldn't fish em.

American Angler or Flytyer within the last couple of years ran an article on 3 new young guns in flytying. One of them was an engineer in his 30's that did these flatwings and sold them on his website. I went to the website and he was asking about 10 to 15 dollars a fly. He also stated in his introduction "Are they worth it, personally I don't think so" This was the quote of the guy tying them and offering them for sale on his website. Obviously he didn't care if he had to tie any for other fishers or not.

I think they are a neat looking pattern.
How about the Whistler hook, Dan Blanton uses or at least used to. It is a very short shank hook.

You the man David!!

Bob in still hot Fresno

[David Lee]

Always great to have your input , Bob !!

The classic Whistler hook in the old days was the EC-254 SS , I love the 1/0 Seaguard version but ran out of them several years ago ....


Here's a few Flatwings I've been working on -

[David Lee]

Shot #1 - Deceivers tied to look like baby Ladyfish (Sabalito Deceivers) . Nope , those ain't Flatwings .... just smarty flies that'll go to Baja w/ me in November . Hope huge Roo's will like 'em !!

#2 - Flatwing Ladyfish w/ a Sea Habit head , hook is a 3/0 Siwash .

#3 - nondescript bigassed Flatwing , also on 3/0 stainless Siwash .

#4 - Rainbow Trout Flatwing , TMC 811S , 1/0 .

[Darian]

Steve Cali ties/uses a pattern called the Estar Listo in Baja for Roosters. It's a flat wing pattern that uses white bucktail for the belly, a slight amount of flash and long saddle hackles (olive/brown in combo with Jungle Cock eyes) to produce a fly that ranges from 7" to 10" in length. Hook size is 3/0 to 4/0, tiemco 600s(??). Sorry, I don't have any photo's and Steve seems to have taken his website down. He does have a blog that may have a photo of the fly on it, tho. Check the archives.

According to Steve, he ties the pattern for large Roosters and fishes the surf quite a bit down there.

[Hogan Brown]

I fish east coast flat wing style flies on a floating or intermediate line when stripers are in the shallows (1-5') chasing bait. Great patterns to imitate a stuned or crippled squaw fish.

[David Lee]

Darian -

Thanks for the info . I do recall seeing a few of Steve's Roosterfish flies . He has done quite a bit of hunting those things in the surf , so I could be on the right track ? Do you think the Sabalito Deceiver's profile is too heavy ?? Ladyfish are skinny things .....

Hogan -

Thanks for the input . A couple of questions .....

Do you have any problems w/ the fly fouling ??

Do you tend to use Flatties depending on water clairity (since Flatwings don't push much water) ??

The Flatwings are pretty fun to tie , but they do demand good thread control to keep the feathers where they belong . I've noticed that they have a great wiggle in the water , and sometimes fly action can seal the deal .....

Any opinions on eyes ?? While Jungle Cock looks pretty good in a traditional sense , I cannot justify spending that kind of $$$$ on any type of feather ( $100.00+ on a neck for eyes ? Candida would skin me ...... !!)- has anyone used the synthetic JC eyes that are available ??

Thanks again to everyone for the input !!

D.~

[Jgoding]

David,

You been on the Surftalk forums.... a lot of guys tie those and some are big.... I think you can buy packages of just the jungle cock nails for cheap or used to. I believe I heard the immitation ones were alright but it could've been they sucked too.... don't really remember....

But, if you really really really want a neck....

[David Lee]

Hey Jeff !!

Yeah .... I saw you were on surftalk (noticed they did the edit on one of your posts w/ a link .....) - they sure do have some fine tiers on that board !

The whole Flatwing concept makes a lot of sense , but I hate to jump in w/ both feet before I see results from that style (having collected enough tying crap to fill a room w/ other kinds of flies) . I think the Flatwing combo of color , movement , and the suggestion of life lends itself to mostly super-clear water situations (Baja surf , the American , etc.) , but I simply haven't fished them enough to make a call one way or the other .

JC neck - I can see the look on my Wife's face when I flush $160.00 on a #1 neck .

Probably be the LAST thing I ever see ......

David

[Hogan Brown]

Dave -

"Do you have any problems w/ the fly fouling ??"

No, Not really, I use really stiff hackle feathers, synthetics, and yak hair for mine. I don't tend to do a lot of striping when I am fishing these so fouling isn't much of a problem. Usually am sight fishing to a pod of fish smashing bait and cast at or around boils/busts. A few twitches or short pause strips and I get a hit or I pick up and look for the next fish. I have found (from snorkling and watching) that when these fish are smashing bait they connect about 50% of the time - usually stunning the bait or if the bait escapes the fish will see your fly and think it stunned it.

Do you tend to use Flatties depending on water clairity (since Flatwings don't push much water) ??

Most of the time I use these flies is late in summer when water clarity is not an issue. Since I exclusively fish the river for stripers during the spring and summer months water clarity isn't an issue most of the time. Furthermore, when I fish these flies I have already found fish so pushing water or pulling fish to my fly from a distance is not a concern. I am keying on the visual aspect of their feeding. Bottom line is I fish this fly in a very specific manner under very specific conditions.

[Darian]

I've been looking for the fly that Steve sent me but can't seem to locate it. When I find it, I'll post a pic.

Some design points I recall are that the:


hook is a relatively short, stout shank,

bucktail is tied in as a collar and covers most of the shank,

flatwing hackles are relatively long and vary in length to create a taper.


I've tied/used a variation of this pattern that I used from a panga in June. Unfortunately, I only took a couple of the flies down there and lost them on Roosters.

In my version, I used a sea habit head as I decided that Jungle Cock eyes were too fragile. In fairness to Steve, I believe that he ties that particular pattern for display and uses a harder head eye combo for fishing. Also, his version calls for a dark brown/olive color combo in hackles. Mine is olive and lighter brown/barred hackles. Also, I used up to 4 long hackles, 2 shorter, and 2 short/wider hackles over the top. The fly is tied on a 2/0 hook and ends up around 5" in length. I'm not completely sold on my version yet but the Panguero said he thought the colors were just right.

I can't say that this fly won't foul during distance casting as in the surf as I didn't use it there. However, Steve has and didn't report any problems with it.

I had no problems with fouling from the hackles and, I believe, that's due to their length.

[David Lee]

Hogan -

Fantastic information !!! Curious as to how your stiffer Flatwings move compaired to the supple , thin ones .... It must be a cool fishery you have up there on the big Sacramento !

Darian -

No suprise you lost them on Roosters - I've never seen a lame fly come from your hands !

Got into my reject bag last night and cut-up 7 flies tyed on the 1/0 EC-254 Seaguard hooks , so I have something different to work with . That hook tends to be a bit soft , but I've honed them to where they are frightening to look at , so I don't think I'll have bending issues . I'm thinking that a hook w/ the point closest to the eye is the way to go on the short FW's - I'll work on a new batch over the next few days and hit the A to 'test' them .

Again , thanks to everyone for input on the subject . Great to have Tyers this skilled to bounce ideas around with !

David

[Steve Cali]

Hi Darian,

Here is a photo, terrible one at that, but it shows the basic tapering etc of my Estar Listo. As for fouling...if tied right there should be no problem. The buck tail takes care of that...

Steve Cali

[Darian]

Steve,.... thanks for posting that picture. After looking at it I've decided that my pattern description didn't do your fly justice. :confused: Also, my memory isn't what it once was.... :wink: :wink:

[Scott V]

I have 2 of Steve's flies and I must say there are some of the finest I have seen. They have a special place in my house that I keep them, they are prized flies to me. And they will be used, I just hope they do not get destroyed, but if they do, oh well.

[Darian]

Scott,.... You've shown yourself to be very interested in this stuff (tying and fishing). I'd argue that you should use one and keep one of those flies for an example to tie more flies from. That way, you won't end up like me and unable to recall the recipe correctly.... :lol: :lol:

[Steve Cali]

Darian & Scott,

Thanks for the kind words. I feel my head swelling...grin...

Bill has some amazing fly tiers here on his board and there is always something to learn. What a great resource! Thanks Bill!

Scott, fish them I know how you can replace them...wink, wink...and Darian's is right ... you ought to be able to tie them with no problem. I'll get the tying instructions on file and get them to you.

Anyway, I hope you fish them hard till they fall apart or better yet the fish destroy them.

SC

[David Lee]

Beautiful fly , Steve !

Any opinions on the flatwing style ?? Also , would you have any interest in starting a surf Roosterfish thread on the salt forum (please) ???

Fiddled w/ more East coast patterns over the past couple days - did 6 Rhody Flatwings (Bill Peabody) and several modded (inverted or on keel hooks) Ray's Flies (Ray Bondorew) . The Rhody's are mostly Bucktail , w/ a single saddle tyed flat - kind of funny to see the progression as far as fullness .... the first ones came out nice , but the instructions I have call for using VERY small amounts of Bucktail , so I thinned them accordingly . Wound up changing the color scheme slightly on half the batch and was happy with the results .

For the Ray's Flies ..... the tiny amounts seemed almost silly - have you ever actually counted-out 6 strands of Bucktail ?!? I'll post photos later ......

David

[Steve Cali]

Thanks David.

I love flatwings and any variation that is left coast influenced...

They swim wonderfully and are very easy to cast and tie.

With regards to the Roo thread on the salt board...any specifics???

Counting out six bucktail hairs...yikes! Can't wait to see your flies as you have always tied beautiful flies David.

SC

[Darian]

Just for info purposes.... Saw a post over on Blantons BB by a person named Johnny King. It's under a thread titled, "Tying Method for Full Body Baitfish Pattern". Click on the photo attachment to view some very good, tented patterns for salt water flies. :D :D

[Steve Cali]

Darian,

Jonny's flies are works of art. His fly is called the kinky muddler. Just google it and you'll get more info.

Steve Cali

[Darian]

KINKYYYYY.... :lol: The olive version of this fly might make a very good imitation of young Lamprey on the American River. 8) Look out Stripers.... :unibrow: :unibrow:

[David Lee]

Just for info purposes.... Saw a post over on Blantons BB by a person named Johnny King. It's under a thread titled, "Tying Method for Full Body Baitfish Pattern". Click on the photo attachment to view some very good, tented patterns for salt water flies. :D :D

I've been following Johnny's Kinky Muddler for the past few months over on SOL - good looking tye !! Most of the Tyers on that board are doing some WAAAAY cool work .

I've tyed quite a few Rhody Flatwings in the past several weeks ..... not getting the motion out of them that I expected . I'll post more tyes as I catch-up on tying over the next two weeks -

D.~

[Steve Cali]

..... not getting the motion out of them that I expected . I'll post more tyes as I catch-up on tying over the next two weeks -

D.~

David,

This is why I like Jonny's style of fly. The large head creates some turbulance which in turn wags the tail so to speak.

SC

[David Lee]

David,

This is why I like Jonny's style of fly. The large head creates some turbulance which in turn wags the tail so to speak.

SC

I also like it , Steve ..... though I have doubts about its ability to withstand several fish eating it (mono thread , un-reinforced , binding down slippery synthetics) . I tyed several based on J.K.'s bug a few months back , and was pleased w/ the way they turned out (though I coated the eyes and the front of the body w/ silicone to make it hold up better ....) .

The bulbous head is great - I've been tying Bob Popovics Siliclones for quite a while now , that head creates a huge vortex and makes whatever tail is tyed-in move like all get-out .

The next logical step is to tye a Dahlberg w/ a long flatwing tail - that should get the movement I'm looking for !!

D.~

[Steve Cali]

Hi David,

I do not use mono and if you glue each step the back tye of materials are very durable. I have some similar flies that use the same principle of tying that Jonny has posted on Dan's BB that I use in Baja, see attached photos.

Also included in the photos Kinky Muddler I messin with...One of Jonny's patterns.

SC