Just a rant

[Ed Wahl]

I shouldn't even let something this stupid bother me, but it does. It's been festering awhile now, despite the good advice from my friends.

So here it is.

I was loitering around Bill's shop the other day, bs'ing with Andy and Charlie, when I picked up a copy of Ca. Fly Fisher.
The cover had a line that said,"Highway 88 Options".

I thought to myself, cool, let's see what he's writing about. Red, Woods, Caples, the Carson?

And then, Horror of Horrors, he's writing about some of my 'secret spots'!
I would name them but why bother, they're all out now for anyone to read.

And now my rant, I bet you all thought that was it, didn't you?

What kind of person goes out, finds some small, lightly fished waters, and thinks to himself," man, I really gotta get as many people in here as will fit"?

I just don't get it.

Mike tells me it's called making a living as a writer. He may have a point, but at what point should you draw the line?

Then he pointed out that where we were going was a place we'd read about in that very article.

Yeah, I replied, why wouldn't we, it's right there in print?

Sometimes I hate reason.

Oh yeah, I came away from that trip with another secret little spot, and I'm not telling Mike about it either.

Guess I showed him.

Ed

[Phil Synhorst]

Illinois Nazis got nothing on Secret Spot Nazis.:lol::lol::lol:

It was a bummer to see THE spot in print. The new place we went to however didn't have much special about it to really qualify as secret.

[hikenfish]

...... ( Dee-Lam-Ma), n. - a situation that requires a choice between two equal, usu. unpleasant alternatives
Boy, I feel your pain on this one.
I've had intense feelings over this subject for years, close to losing friendships. A fisherman wants to normally share his good spots with his friends, but the results can be less than wonderful in the long run.
I remember stalking out for years a single lake with the promise of a looong hike to golden trout
in the Hoover wilderness. It eluded me, mostly due to the LACK of information gleaned from internet, fly shops, Ranger stations, and any people that might have gone there previously.
Now I had to go! One day I mumbled the location to a guy fishing beside me at Pyramid Lake during the winter, and wawlaaa, the sucker passed me on the trail the same summer I was headed there. The only difference was that he posted step by step details and pictures on the fishsniffer of his trip, and you guessed it.... The pack trains with llamas carrying steaks and red wine were shortly enroute.
I'd found a nice little trail less lake around the I-80 area years ago with 18 inch cutts in it, and spilled my guts to a land owner near Rainbow lodge (who was nice enough to give me a ride on the back of his pickup sorta on the way there) with a fishing report after I hiked out.
It was devoid of all fish the next summer, however this wasn't so painful since DFG never stocked it again after the 2000 cessation of airdrops due to frogs, and it had no natural spawning anyhow. I have been to a couple of "desert lakes of NE California", were one needs a new suspension in their vehicle after a couple of trips, and is picking huge dust buggers outta his nose after the dusty trip. Recently one of my favorite places was littered with human defecation and toilet paper flying all over the freakin place, the folks didn't even have the smarts to bury their sh-t.

I smile when I quote a bit taken from "Lake fishing with a fly", by Cordes and Kauffman-
Finally we reached our remote destination, a little body of water we call "Callibeatis Pond",
partly out of respect for the beautiful mayflies which inhabit its shallow, weedy depth, but mostly to disguise it from wandering ears that might overhear a "private" conversation about its fine, secluded fishing. It's not that we are a selfish lot; it's just that we are a bit protective about who fishes "our" pond. If only ten anglers killed a limit of trout from that little lake, more than half the fish population might be absent on our next visit. We guard this little jewel religiously, never taking anyone to its secluded shore unless we have complete confidence that he will use barb less hooks, carefully return every fish he has landed, and never, absolutely never, take anyone else there.. Needless to say, we have never found a fisherman quite like that; hence, we have never taken anyone to Callibeatis Pond.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

99% of us fly fishers are too lazy to make that hike so fear not Ed.

[Ed Wahl]

Bill, with the growing numbers of fly fishers, bait fishers, and gear fishers in Ca. 99% is still way too low a number. That 1% that will go check out a spot a mile in is getting larger every year.

Hikenfish, my long lost brother, where ya been?

I thought mom was just joking around when she named you.:lol:

Have you heard from our other brother 'Bonkeneat'?:lol:

Him and cousin 'Catchenkill' used to hang out together.:lol:

Those are indeed some hard lessons. Been there, done that. I feel ya.

Ed

[Black Cloud]

Ed, I feel your pain. When I saw that article, I started going why, why!! Then my wife comes in and says stop hollering at the dog. I said it's not the dog but this article. She left the room saying something about fisherman and I apoligize to the dog.

James

[hikenfish]

Ed,

Hopefully I'll see you on the trail someday!!
I always enjoy your wit, insight, and of course your posts.
I just had to chime in, and get up on my soapbox, and now
I'd better go fishing....
Happy trails and the best of tight lines to you

[David Lee]

- - - - ------------

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

My friends who guide up on the Upper Sac said that there are not many people up there this summer.

Maybe it is the economy?

[cruncher]

Illinois Nazis got nothing on Secret Spot Nazis.


Hmmm, and what does that exactly mean? :confused:

[Ralph]

It's ironic that in the same issue I wrote a piece called "Find Your Own Good Water". Back in the day when you could camp at Milton and not see another angler for a week, or camp on the East Carson and not see another human for a week, I invited Mike Fong to join me to fish both spots. It never occurred to me he would write about these places.

When the article came out about Milton his defense was that he was "thinning out the crowds" and when the East Carson piece showed up he rationalized it by saying, "No one is going to walk that far". Yeah right. After that Mike and I only fished the Truckee or Lake Davis together. I would have loved to have shared with him some other special spots because he was so much fun to fish with but he burned that bridge. In my cranky old age, I've whittled down the number of people I even talk about special spots with, to about 3.

When writers, magazines, fly shops, and guides stoop to whoring two-step rivulets (and I don't care how they rationalize it) they've stepped well beyond some intangible, but very real, line of angling ethics. Piss on the whores who sell out the Clear, Deer, and Willow Creeks of the world.

[wjorg]

You all know I have been territorial and posessive of spot knowledge. On the other hand, who is going to look after "your secret spot" when you die with the knowledge of it. Other people will find it, especially as the metropolis forms from Seattle to LA over the next 100 years.

My question is, what makes one worthy of having the spot shared with them?

[David Lee]

My question is, what makes one worthy of having the spot shared with them?

The rare ability to keep quiet about it , and being REAL selective about who they wind-up taking there in the future .

David

[Ned Morris]

OK everyone take a deep breath and stop acting like a bunch of high school cheerleaders. Yes this is probably very disappointing to some of you who seem to know all the secret spots. Unfortunately there is nothing you can do about it as there are 35 million people living in CA and when people want to really search out and find "secret" spots, they simply can. You just hope they are as educated and ethical as you are and preserve the fishery as well as you do. Try as you might to keep to yourselves, word does travel quickly. I wrote an Article in last month's Salmon, Trout, & Steelheader Magazine on my 15 year quest to catch all 12 Native Trout found in CA and the CA Heritage Trout Challenge Program. I chose my words carefully. Some native species are easy to find, others are not yet all fish occupy some waters that are vulnerable to overfishing as they provide easy access. I chose only to list waters where I saw several other people fishing and that had widely distributed documentation on the internet. Other waters I simply left off however the information can be easily found and there isn't a thing I can do about it except to pray it doesn't get destroyed one day. People can and will find places to fish. It took me no longer than a day to pinpoint where Mikey Weir caught his monster Lahontan Cutthroat on Sept. 2009 FFM. There are plenty of resources available to people. You just have to have faith that people who search and eek out these places aren't the guys showing up with the nightcrawlers and powerbait catching their limits. Just believe they are people that are just as passionate about fisheries as you are and practice catch and release.

[Ed Wahl]

When writers, magazines, fly shops, and guides stoop to whoring two-step rivulets (and I don't care how they rationalize it) they've stepped well beyond some intangible, but very real, line of angling ethics. Piss on the whores who sell out the Clear, Deer, and Willow Creeks of the world.

Amen brother, amen.

I wasn't ranting because I want to selfishly keep these places to myself. I think I've put enough friends, and sometimes strangers, onto good spots to disprove that. What bugs me is someone announcing them to the world.

Troutdog,......high school cheerleaders?:-k
So now that you found Mikey's spot, would you put it out on the net or write it up in a magazine?
I bet you wouldn't. My problem is with the ones who would. There's a line there, you know that as well as I do.
That being said, you do have my email right? Buddy?

Walter, David hit it on the head, except he didn't add the requirement that you be fun to fish with.
Of course there's nothing wrong with doing your own leg work to find hidden little gems.

[caltagm]

"Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead."
- Ben Franklin

[wjorg]

Ed,
I am no antagonist to your point, I share your sentiments to a T, maybe even further. We all have sweet spots and tactics we only share with the lucky few or the "worthy."

I keep it quiet, and I wont take anyone with me when I go to the gems I've been shared. However, that wont automatically allow "you" to let me in on the gems. Yes, maybe fun to fish with buys some credit as well; who wants to go to some remote place with someone they don't get along with?

What is it that really makes us want to share? Ego? Helpfulness?? Why does the paranoia develop in us when we've been burned in the past? Hunter territoriality instinct? It's been my personal examination of those questions that have helped me become a more enjoyable person to fish with, as well as better able to again take pride when I give good, helpful, and appropriate(!!) information to another fishing individual. But who am I to judge what is appropriate info and when I am just being selfish.

If someone brings the rare quality of secret or just good spots to greater public attention, when do we thank them(Bill Kiene??, Russell Chatham?) and when do we lambaste them(average a88hole fishing writer?).

When I was at Kulik Lodge humping fuel, burning trash and mowing the lawn, and being a fish catchin' son of a bit*h, they resented Trey Combs' use of their names for the holes in his book on Alaska's various rivers that came out. They are the first full time fly fishing lodge in Alaska, and have been there for over 50 years. Ray Peterson helped promote and establish Alaskan fishing tourism through his Airline, and lived to see the proliferation of sport fishing tourism and lodges everywhere. The Lodge is not the "most famous" and does not court the most famous or the most rich clients at the destruction of their fisheries. However, it has been their success and the success of the other lodges that has contributed to the unyielding harassment of the fish by thousands of angler/rod days per year. It is amazing to see five fish in a row caught with half a head from people fishing beads incorrectly, as no spin gear is really used on the river. With my bead properly placed, I never took a face off, only eyeballed the occasional poor fish. It was an interesting thing for me to see at this lodge with no incoming roads, planes flying in from hours away....having left during the unsafe darkness(client lives at risk) for a chance at the first drifts in runs only a five minute walk from my shack. That's what I mean by Alaska will be like California before we know it, if not from the expanding population but from the excessive angler rod days per year on all the waters.

So what do we do? Lotto system? Break up licensing by county, region? Make it more expensive to fish the various areas of the states? If that could bring funding/revenue that wouldn't be hijacked by the general fund, would you vote for that one? But then again we would just have more Fish Nazi's and Taliban angling ethics committees.....

This rant has only been provided to further thought and discussion.

[Ed Wahl]

Sorry Walt, I had to go back and re-read your post.

My ran'ts over. Feelin much better now.

I've got to go can some tomato's and think about what to fish for next.

Ed

[wjorg]

Please realize I agree with you fully. I comprehend the almost certain possibility that I will watch the eradication of Salmon and Steelhead in California during my lifetime.

[Jgoding]

This is why I fish the same crappy area every time I go out to the AR.... no one to compete with usually since about 90% of the time you get skunked but it has its days and if you take the time to learn the whole area you can hook up with something any time of the year.... steelhead, striper, shad, suckerfish, or salmon.

It used to be pretty good but that second high-water year a few ago really changed the layout and it doesn't have the holding areas it used to but I don't mind taking people there because it's tough fishing and most people get bored of that challenge really quick.

[Darian]

I long ago lost interest in protecting fishing spot from the rest of the world. For me, this is a non-starter. ;)

I understand the sentiment involved in Trying to keep a place found thru exploring and keeping it in it's present condition.... I, also, think Walter's point is valid. Given that there're 35 million plus people living here, a great number of which are back packers/fisherman, it may be unrealistic to keep a secret place secret for very long. :|

A visit to Bill's shop is all it takes to see that detailed maps (with commentary) of every area in this and state neighboring states are available. Also, F&G Dept's all provide publications about where to fish in the back country of the same states. It's called promotion. ;)

How many of us have posted a fishing report with accompanying photo's on this BB only to have someone identify it from the background. Also, some of us have taken that point so far as to "white out" background details in fish porn photo's on the American River and others :?: :?:

We're all posting on an internet website that everyone, world wide, can view. Over the course of few years here I've read enough of the details in sketchy reports to put together where most pristine, high country places are located. Any other BB reader could easily do the same. Have any of you provided info about a place to a friend thru a PM and then have that friend post a report about a trip there, later :?: :?:

Honestly, I can't think of too many places that I've recently read about that were places that I didn't already know about.

The point is that, whether we like it or not, people are going to find out where our favorite fishing spots are and report on them. And,.... occasionally we'll encounter them in the back country. Maybe we should all agree that, as Bill pointed out, most of us (me included) will not make the hiking effort to find those pristine places any longer. First of all, my knees won't let me do it. Secondly, the best, untapped places to fly fish all involve salt water for me.... Ah yes, GPS, radar, sound vessel, swells, a freshening breeze, more swells....., must.... watch.... the horizon,..... ULPpppp. :puke: :oops:

[kokaneejr]

Hey guys I think you are right. Only share spots with those you trust and are special. I have no problem talking about areas or rivers or generic spots but my special places I keep quiet. Be careful in your photos also I had someone post a photo of a great bass caught in a special place with a landmark(of sorts) in the background and I found it on google earth 10 minutes later. I have never fished there, but will someday with the guy who originally posted, and then after I told him he changed the photo.
Now for all you who feel they need to help out and just can't hold back telling I will clear out my box and you can pm away:) I promise I won't tell a soul.

p.s. without ever meeting me Ed gave me a secret spot to fish so go easy on him:)

[Bruce Berman]

I logged on to rant on the Salmon/Steelhead topic threads, but saw this before doing so, and the topic is the same.

I just finished an article in Salmon & Steelhead Journal on steelheading on the Trinity. Although about a 20 hour drive from my house, this is my "home water", and I'll spend weeks fishing there every year, out of pure love of steelhead and the chance to hook into one.

The T is certainly no secret, but what burned my ass in the article were a couple of exaggerations (if I'm being kind) or outright lies (if I'm not). The author wrote:

"Anglers who became spoiled by four years of exceptional fishing will have to readjust their expectations. Instead of hooking 40 fish a day, they'll have to "settle" for 5 and 10 fish days. Such is life."

40 hookup days? I've talked to scores of fishermen who hit the T hard in 2007, and never did I meet one who hooked anywhere near that number. And now we can EXPECT 5 and 10 fish days?

It's not that these stats aren't possible, but that they're not the rule. I had some great days in 2007 but I've also had plenty of skunks on the T.

This kind of irresponsible writing brings out the misled hourdes. I figure that article is good for an additional 300 fishermen on the T this year.

No one is gonna stop the publication of locales, but stretching the truth like this is totally unethical. I guess this really pisses me off because I came out of a journalism background, and untruths really do a disservice to the readership. I see too much of this in America these days.

[Hogan Brown]

Many interesting perspectives. Having written articles for national publications I can say that it is always a gray area as to how much information you share. One thing that I have always believed is that the more people fish a spot or body of water the more people are willing to go to bat for the issues that surround that spot. While articles and press may bring more people to your secret spot it also makes people more aware of the spot and what a resource it is. I truelly believe that the more people that take advantage of the states natural resources the more people we will have that are willing to protect them. Whether that is at the ballot box, with conservation, or educating others. One vote or voice doesn't go very far this day and age.

[Ralph]

I just received a note from Richard Anderson, editor and publisher of CAFF.

"Sounds like I blew it, Ralph. I try to take into the account the size of a water, and the potential impact of CFF exposure, when selecting articles. You'll never see, for example, a story on (left blank) Creek or (left blank) Creek -- not because they're my local waters, but because they're small streams that are too easy to reach. . . I did not know that (left blank) Creek was so narrow and could be so easily impacted, and I am sorry for it."

Richard is a class act. This is NOT one of the magazines I'd "piss on"!!

[chemdoc]

I had the same reaction as you did Ed when I saw that title. Fortunately, my secret spot was not mentioned so I breathed a sigh of relief. I did take a fellow member of the Davis Flyfishers there last month and swore him to secrecy.

Phil

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

The Internet is the biggest information center in the world which has its good and bad effects on fishing destinations.

My job is to help the newcomers to the sport so I direct them to the right place at the right time but it is never a small remote stream because I don't really know of many and don' think that is where the newcomer needs to go to catch their first fish on a fly.

Most of the remote streams have that built in protection which is the work it takes to get there. I think there are thousands of stretches of small streams that get little or no pressure yearly.

I actually believe that fly fishing is on a decline right now just because of the economy.

I think this is a good thread as long as people don't get to mean spirited about it.

[Dave E.]

I think we all have stories of places lost.
These day's friends or not, I don't discuss favorite trails, let alone specific fishing locations with anyone that isn't close to me.

I think Bill was right on with his earlier comment that "99% of us fly fishers are too lazy to make that hike so fear not Ed. " which he has reiterated in his last post "Most of the remote streams have that built in protection which is the work it takes to get there."

Along those lines I read with interest a recent thread about over crowding on a waterway that I frequent. I didn't chime in because I really couldn't connect with the sentiments of the anglers or fishing guides. I rarely see members of either group on that water. From my observations, it would seem that neither the guides nor the vast majority of fly fishers are willing to start or end their day with hikes of any distance, or to fish waters outside the " blue ribbon " sections. As if Trout give a dang about boundaries drawn on maps.

As long as the general angling public believes that the best fishing takes place along a few thousand yards of an entire rivers course, or within a couple of minutes of a roadside turnout or a dust over crust parking lot, then so be it. That does nothing more than intensify the outdoor experience for those willing to put in the effort. Which goes back to Bill's earlier comment and at least to me, it's the way it ought to be and the way it's always been.

..and I'll second the comment about Richard being a class act. He's been generous to a fault with his time and knowledge, both in and outside of the realm of fly fishing, to his community and to me personally.

Best, Dave

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Very good Dave......

[Ralph]

I think Bill was right on with his earlier comment that "99% of us fly fishers are too lazy to make that hike so fear not Ed. "



In Mid July a friend and I spent two days hiking/fishing from Hangman's Bridge to Leviathan Mine road on the East Carson River. Much of the river is 3-4 miles from any trailhead. There were people throughout the system with anglers at almost every good pool. We met guides from Gardnerville, South Lake Tahoe, Reno, Truckee and Sacramento. When fishing is good, the East Walker is the same scene. 15 years ago the "1% will only walk one mile" rule may have been true. But with today's fishing pressure, information network, and massive guide pool, that axiom is meaningless if the water is promoted to the masses.

[huntindog]

I had mentioned how good the fishing was at a secret spot to a "friend" once and saw him up there a week later which was absolutely fine. At one point I landed about a 5 lb brown right near his boat..he asked to take a pic. A week later he posts a big story on fishsniffer with my effing picture in it along with 10 pics of him...and of course he named the spot. I was horrified. Why on earth would someone do this..he had nothing to gain other than ego boost.

[wjorg]

"I could tell you but then I would have to kill you"

"If it was a secret how did you know about it, even if you found it yourself"- My Father

[Darian]

This thread needs to evolve into something other than a gripe session. The discussion could boil down to a consideration of privatizing quality fishing waters or something close to it. It brings to mind a mag article by the late Lee Wulff about the need(?) for privatizing high quality fishing waters. His point was close to that made by Ralph. If a very good fishing spot is promoted to the "masses", the resulting pressure will reduce it to mediocrity. When I first heard it :-s (much younger then), I was vehemently opposed. Now, I have mixed emotions about it. :confused: I do recognize that some private waters (lakes, rivers/streams) already exist and I'm OK with that.

Altho there's no denying the impact of increased fishing pressure on fisheries, I'm not convinced that the idea of privatization of most/all public, fresh waters is a good idea. There're a number of negative potentials involved. First, if river access is privatized, only guides, famous personalities and the wealthy will be able to afford to fish (similar to that in Europe). Second, No amount of privatization will bring back what has already been lost by rampant development and over population and it may result in an increase in a different type of development (e.g. more lodges, handicapped access for back country sites, etc.) Third, by privatizing fresh waters for whatever purposes (fishing?), we might be contributing to privatizing ownership of the water itself. That's a trend already happening in places around this state. This one might be the biggest threat. :-|

It seems that the single solution imagined for all of our environmental ills is to limit or exclude human contact/activities. Hard to discount that idea (give the obvious) BUT it still chaps my butt....!!!!

IMHO, increased privatization for protection of quality fisheries would be an interim or temporary solution to the larger problem of degradation of the environment. :-| :-| Fisheries may continue to decline regardless of what we do.... :(

[Ralph]

At noon Lisa and I will drive about one hour and then hike and scramble a little bit. All on public land. We will make camp before the sun goes down. The next 3-4 days we will experience some of the best fishing to be had in California. We WILL catch trout over 5 pounds. I absolutely guarantee there will not be a soul, nor will there be a sign anyone has been there this year. I don't know of anyone who has ever fished here. Ever.

Opportunities like this exist all over the West. Don't expect to be told where they are. No one told us about this place and over the decades we have discovered a fair number of retreats where humans don't bother.

My advice, for what it's worth: Keep exploring, push your boundaries, and don't be afraid to get skunked. When you find that secret spot, put your ego on hold and keep your mouth shut. Good luck!!

[Dave Neal]

Ralph, that was the most exciting thing I have read in a while. THANKS.

There is hope in the world.

Throwing out some key info on already "known" fisheries (especially to novices, kids, beginners) is a great thing. Giving people some info and techniques too help them out is important and what we ought to do.

I also agree with Hogan Brown's points.

But the really true special places are that way for a reason. There are many, many, such places here in California.

Two weeks ago, between Lone Pine and Bishop, hahahaha, there was a 28" golden trout caught (and unfortunately killed) the thing was enormous, and fat.

I have seen golden trout so big my head nearly exploded.

I would be killed on the spot if I ever wrote about where these fish live.

But they are out there, waiting. And will hopefully always be out there if they don't get published.

[Bob Scheidt]

Here's my take on it:
When we fishers are going to the same place for years and years, the human tendancy is we get a little possesive about "our spot" We really know everone has as much right to be there as we do, but we don't like to say that. It's kinda our spot.

When I am at a place where there a alot of fisherfolks fishing, I realize I am part of the problem. I think, "man there's too many people here" they need to go someplace else.

The other anglers are looking at me and saying the same thing to themselves, funny isn't it!

When there is a magazine like California Flyfisher reporting on spots for years and years, there are only so many spots and eventually our favorite spots will get published. I like the magazine and I buy every issue. They have put a big article on one of my favorite spots and for about a year there were alot more flyfishers there than in the past. Most of them didn't do alot of catching and lost interest in returning, so the numbers there now are about where they were before the article, but it did put alot of people there for a year or so.

So, be happy and don't get upset, try not to get possesive.

[DFrink]

There are a lot of very good points on this posting. I can't say that I have a solution to secret places being discovered by "outsiders". With the increase in over population this problem is only going to get worse. I remember going places with my Dad when I was young and not seeing a person all day. Now I pull up and see a car with a bay area license plate and kringe. But I have to remember that no matter how remote the place may be it is very likely that someone found it before me. It’s called sharing. One topic that I strongly disagree with is the idea of privatizing our waters. The last thing we need to do is make it more difficult for the average person to enjoy the sport of fly fishing. It’s already hard enough to find a decent place to go, without having to join some sort of “country club” in order to fish. When fly fishing turns into some sort of fraternity where you have to pay to play then I quit (or move out of California). I think educating about catch and release and advocating the use of condoms :lol: is our best move. Fish on.

[Bernard]

I cringe with you ... Here in So. Cal. where there's even less water (except the water we steal from other parts of the state for our swimming pools and ridiculous lawns) the same issue has come up. Both as a result of the magazine mentioned as well as message boards. In my humble opinion, it's just not necessary to expose these spots in such a fashion. Is a publication paying its writers THAT much that they feel comfortable doing this? It makes me think of meter maids. Is this REALLY what you need to do to earn a buck? Am I crazy to suggest that there are other options for you (the writer) out there?
Sigh ....
B

[Dabalone]

Unless you can drive up to it, or its just a short walk, the secret spots are probably safe from the meat fishermen. Thats where the concern is, isn't it? Most of the time these out of the way places are tiny little lakes or small tributaries holding wild trout but mostly small fish, (at least in my experience), and the people who seek them out are likely to be dedicated and would respect that fishery. The bait guys with the stringers would rather back a boat in and catch a limit of large planters, not hike in with ice, ice chests, bait and drinks uphill or downhill for miles to catch some small wild trout and then pack them out on ice for a couple dinners.

[HC]

I got broke in the right way. My friends Dad, WWII Jar Head, said to me: I'll take you in to this place but if you tell anyone else about it, or come back there with out me I will kick your A**. I believed him and I never went back there without him, until he told me "it 's alright now cause it's fished out anyway" of course I took my kids there and a few close friends, but by then there was a new marked road and a bridge!!! But thats progress,or is it regress? There is a saying that goes "Bad roads bring good people, good roads bring the rest". Since then I have had a few more secret places go sour with progress, mostly due to easy access. No hiking or broken axles now. I even remember when the waters in Blue lakes was blue and the Gutts were big and easy. Now with all the PG&E improvements there its not even a shadow of its old self. HC

[tallguy]

I completely disagree about the long walk deterring the meat fisherman. I think remote places are where the serious poaching and meat fishing actually occur. I have been way downstream on the E. Carson and seen the meat fishermen down there filling up their packs. Out of sight, out of mind, away from prying eyes, I think they feel they can take more.

[Black Cloud]

After going back an reading the article in CFF, I went through my stack of fishing books and found two that listed the same spots, with descriptions and locations. So I guess they are not so secret as under publisized. I still have a few spots that I have never taken anyone to, one in particular is so small and brushy that you would not expect to find fish let alone any of quality (16-20"). The really great thing about this small stream is that I don't have to hike two hours as it is about fifty yard from a highway. Someone else posted about getting a map and follow those little blue lines, there is great pleasure in finding these little gems The only other directions I give to this spot is it is south of Redding, north of Bishop and east of Sacramento.....and before my friends PM me, no it is not Red Creek.

James

[bigfly]

Over the years many of my best "spots" have become common knowledge.
But, I'm happy to say, it will not effect my Karma, because I never told a soul.
Not merely out of common sense, but because if you walk all over to find a spot, it should develop more than just leg muscles. Let the hoard earn it! Or not!
I think people are ruining things with the Internet spew about their new find.
As a guide, I'd love to shout about great spots. As a caring steward of the planet, you'll just have to shoot me, because I won't tell.
Stash your fishing writers ego, button it, and fish!

[troutbm]

I think you all can blame the internet for this problem. That being said I never have trouble finding solitude. Boot leather express baby !

[Greg F]

I have learned about many great, "uncrowded" fishing spots in the magazine or online. I also wondered, what would possess a guy to write about his secret spot? Like probably most of the other readers, I haven't had the chance to check any of them out. Because with the family and job and little time for exploring, I fall to the security of the same old fishing spots that I and everyone know about. Some of these are spots I was once sworn to secrecy about and they are common knowledge now. Maybe everyone is into those new spots, because a lot of the time the old places aren't really crowded at all. When I was a surfer, guys would defend their spots with slashed tires and other vandalism and worse. I hope it never comes to that.

[bigfly]

A cell phone with camera, and the wardens number on speed dial is a good way to discourage folks who don't follow rules, but it smacks of big brother in the back country.
I've heard a pebble under the stem cap as a warning to poachers works well. One tire the first time, two tires the second time, etc.......
We've had several incidents where locals called people on the rules and were assaulted, be careful of a strong approach to bait fishers.
Had a warden once tell me he would trust an armed hunter before he'd trust an unarmed fisherman, and it is legal for fishermen on the water, to carry heat, so... be nice out there.

[wjorg]

Where are my old friends? I smell a bad gun on the water debate emerging.

"No, stop that!"

You should have seen the shock on my friends face when we drove passed the burned out Rav 4 a few years back on the Lower Klamath.....it can get pretty bad even in such an uncrowded place. But nothing tops what the retired firefighters did on the Kern to the resident vandal, or at least the myth of it....

I always appreciate the folks that can appreciate you making the trip to wherever you think you should be alone. They might ask a bit about how long you've been coming or how you found, but that is only to get to know you. I can't tell you how many times some "bait fisherman" has told my fifty years of family history regarding the location we were at, and pointed out the right flies and places to catch nice fish.....

So when you get to Krapivnaya, say hello to the locals.

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

BigFly----Knowing that you are the original "BigFly" of California's fly fishing community; I bet you've read the "Monkey Wrench Gang" by Edward Abbey.

Frank R. Pisciotta

[bigfly]

Frank, I don't know about the original BF, but the book I have read. My favorite of his is Desert Solitare. All it lacked was a little fishing.

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

Big Fly----Sheepishly, I've got the book sitting on a book-shelf; regretably I've never read it. Most especially since it was given to me via a friend I grew-up with in San Francisco's Telegraph Hill/North Beach district. He mailed it to me in 1998 with the inscription:

"I first read this book over 25 years ago while sitting at my campsite along the Virgin River in sourhwest Utah. It has remained one of the most profound pieces of literature I have come across. I hope you enjoy it!

Well, it will now be read.

Frank R. Pisciotta