Handling all fish........

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Fish today are a very precious commodity so we need to take very good care of the ones that are left.

I started fishing barbless in 1975 because two powerful fly fishers, Bob Giannoni and Neil Bohannon, got me going in that direction. This allows me to let fish go much easier as the fly will slide out with less effort.

I also have been a 99% catch-n-release angler sense then too.

As you must know I don't get out like I use to but when I do i am very careful with how I personally handle fish.

I try to use the "heaviest" tippet the fish conditions will allow. This can be 6x though. That way I can try to land fish as fast as possible.

We all need to be thinking about landing fish with the least amount of trauma.

Many of us don't even want to touch the fish or take them out of the water.

If you get them subdued and reach down under water you can sometime get them unhooked without even touching them or very little.

So with being very gentle to the fish we have a much greater chance of them surviving this 'catch-n-release' fishing we are doing.

We like photos of fish so we need to be careful and keep the fish down in the water until the person with the camera is ready, then lift the fish up for a quick shot.

We need to be educating others without offending them.

__________________________________________________ ___________________

I was chatting with David Lee recently and he feels that American Shad are a very delicate fish so try to be very careful with them as well.

__________________________________________________ ___________________

If someone chooses to take fish home and are not going over the limit we have no right to be getting down on them either. The fish and game laws are there to protect us all and allow some harvesting.

[David Lee]

Timely subject .

I used to spend a lot of time watching folks hit the Shad run (as well as doing a fair bit of Shadding myself) - I noticed that the majority of HANDLED Shad died in short order ...... I saw one run from a bluff one evening - guys pounded the Shad w/ lots of netting/handling , the next morning , there were scores of dead ones just downstream of where the 'fun' had been - those fish hadn't been there the afternoon before . I saw this happen several times over several seasons , so it wasn't a fluke thing ....

Water temps OVER around 62-65 degrees make things tough for released Shad - I try to beat them down as fast as possible (DO NOT wait for a Shad to quit fighting , they WON'T QUIT )- when wading , keep the last 15-feet of line/leader in hand (not on the reel) when the shad is close , release the line while swinging the rod back - catch the line in your stripping hand , slide your hand down the leader , grab the FLY(barbless , of course ?) , shake your Shad loose . If you REALLY have to touch your Shad , do it by the bottom jaw with WET HANDS .

In the right hands , light tackle within reason isn't a bad choice . If you insist on using a 4 wt. , use a heavy leader and bring that Shad in quickly !! I've gone as heavy as a 10 wt. , and never noticed a difference in fight . It's disturbing to see people 'cowboying' a 15-inch Shad on a 5 wt. for 10 minutes ........ that can't be doing the fish any favors , you know ?

Why all the fuss over Shad , you ask ??

Ask anyone that has fished them over the past 15+/- years ..... there just isn't as many as there were before . The runs I saw and fished back in the 80's are long gone - what we are fishing now are relatively tiny runs compaired to the 'old days' .

David

[Jeff C.]

Great advice David. I use 8 lb tippet and hand strip in all of my shad in. I normally get them within 20 seconds.

[Charlie Gonzales]

I really like 7 wt's for shad, still lots of fun and you can get them in quick. I had Joe Bania on the river yesterday and he would hook them, play them for a second, then give a bit of slack and they would come unbuttoned, pretty cool.

Take care of the shad.

[jbird]

Thanks for this thread Bill (and David)

Theres no reason at all for under gearing for ANY type of fish. Flyfishermen are by far the worst offenders. This sport is not a fight to the death, but thats whats happenning more and more with the this kind of mentality.

[jbird]

Jason

I think you may have swung the gunbarrel at yourself with your own hand. I did not think of you upon reading this thread.

[David Lee]

Jason -

Read them and take a look at the dates on these posts , please ....

http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13568

http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10881

http://www.kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6193

This is a subject that I rant about every year right around this time .

I think you should stay -

David

[Hairstacker]

Jason, it's true, David's been making public (and private) comments about the safe handling of shad for as long as I've known him and at minimum, in particular, on an annual basis during shad season. In fact, he even schooled me on the subject once when all I did was ask him about how to fish for them. I would not take his comments as being addressed to you.

There has been a vocal group on this board that has gotten excited when they perceived a steelhead, shad, salmon, etc., being mishandled -- I think Bill's post was intended to extend a helpful hand and plea to both groups of handlers and distressed viewers in general, and I have no doubt it was never intended to point at you in particular.

Anyway, I sure hope you reconsider your decision to leave. I, for one, thoroughly enjoyed the smiles and fish pictures you've posted to date and was hoping they would continue. :( I also know there are some other good people here who also swing both ways (fly and conventional).

Mike (The one who recently posted a picture of the venerable Bomber 301 baitcasting plug. :D)

[troutbm]

Theres no reason to take a fish out of water. Work the fish, reach down gently and shake the hook loose with your fingers or some hemo's. I'm not one to feel the need to take pics. The worst offenders I've ever seen as far as mishandling of fish are the chain gang idiots that fish the sailor bar area for steelies.

[Dabalone]

I could see where he may have gotten some bad vibes from his first post. Some people can let their passion for something get almost unreasonable, not everyone may share the same level. I think anyone who takes the time to participate in a board like this is showing some love and concern for the sport we share and a commitment to its resource. I have seen many pics posted, if someone says they were released unharmed, isn't that good enough?

[Darian]

Early on, this BB community was relatively informative and fun to be involved with. Over the past two years, the tone has changed to reflect a lot of elitism, sour grapes and a wholier than thou attitude on the part of those posting in certain forums. We've had discussions about this. :neutral:

Frankly, I'm amazed anyone posts a report with photos any longer. It's almost impossible to do so without someone jumping to conclusions about what they think they see that merits a comment (spell that lecture). Most of the time we're preaching to the choir. While Bill's post was informative and timely, I cringed when I saw it as it was bound to have the result it has.... :\\ His post was the only one in this thread that was necessary to make the point that handling of fish is important. :cool: Repetitive lecturing tends to turn people off. I'm not gonna condemn anyones choice of tools for fishing as long as they are legal. I'll leave the ethics of the choice up to the eminently qualified (and vocal about it :rolleyes: ) members of this BB.

Until I see a difference in what's posted, I'm down with the Fly Tying, Saltwater and BS in Conservation topic areas. :unibrow: :unibrow: And, I can be as cranky as anyone here.... :mad: Racquetball anyone :question: :lol:

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Here is some good info from retired CA DF&G bioligist and fisheries consultant Dennis Lee:

__________________________________________________ ________________________

There has been some American shad research in California in the past but nothing in the last 15 or 20 years. It is apparent that runs of American shad have been reduced due to water management in the same way that other anadromous fish runs in the Central Valley have been affected. Of course American shad are an introduced species and are not native to California. Estimates of California shad run sizes are not available but historical runs in the Central Valley did support commercial fisheries.



At the request of well meaning anglers, commercial fishing and liberal historical angler bag limits have been eliminated or reduced as the number of fish in the runs has appeared reduced. Current daily bag limit for American Shad is 25 and you can still use a dip net to take shad in the Valley District.

American shad are anadromous and as adults they travel in large schools along coastal areas for 4 or 5 years, until they are sexually mature, and then run up large rivers from saltwater to freshwater to spawn. After spawning, surviving adults may return to the ocean although some fish may die from the stress of spawning. Mortality seems to be related to water temperatures, with greater mortality in rviers with higher temperatures. I have not seen large shad die offs in the Amerincan River and have observed shad in the river through October. The newly hatched young remain in freshwater (rivers and Delta) until fall; then move downstream to brackish estuaries where they may remain for a year or more before moving out to the ocean.

Shad are a dispersal spawner and a female shad may contain up to 600,000 eggs. Studies have suggested that high fecundity (number of eggs produced) in fish such as shad has evolve to counter balance pre-adult mortality rates. If correct, the size of the spawning population is not related to the number of returning adults in later runs. Our own shad runs support this conclusion and we see good runs in years following good water conditions. Also shad do not appear to home to their natal stream and will enter tributaries (i.e. American River) when water flows and temperatures are suitable.

All catch and release fishing imparts stress on fish. Some fish appear to withstand stress from angling more than others. Black bass are a good example and one reason that bass tournaments are popular with little, if any, bioloigcal impact on the fishery. I am unaware of any research (other than angler observatons) that indicated that shad are more easily stressed that other fish such as trout and salmon or that removing the fish from the water results in greater mortality. Nonetheless, anglers practicing catch and release should try to follow these general guidelines:

Try to avoid removing the fish from the water.
Underwater unhooking and release is preferred.
Do not squeeze the fish, or touch its eyes or gills.
Remove only those hooks that you can see and remove easily, otherwise clip the line near the mouth on deep hooked fish.
Use artificial lures to minimize deep hooking.
Barbless hooks or hooks with flattened barbs make unhooking easier with less stress on the fish.
Hope this is helpful

Dennis P. Lee
Folsom CA 95630
916 293 1825 cellular

[jbird]

Jason

I had not seen those posts. Im sorry to hear that. I dont check the shad forum that much. I dont know a whole lot about shad, they arent a common gamefish in my neighborhood. I kinda get the feeling you do. You probably know more about them than most of the guys hassling you. (again, I did not see the threads).

This IS a great forum with many wonderful members. There is some BS to wade thru just like anything else in life. Just dont let those guys get you down, dont take it personally and stick around. Heck, we love guys who catch fish and post about it. Thats what this place is all about.

Some of us (me included) will occasionaly point out practices that might be questionable (not necessarily wrong, but questionable) if it leads to a discussion about it, thats great, everyone who reads it is gonna take a little bit from it. And some of those readers may take pause about something they never thought about. When you have a public venue like this, the ripple effect from a contraversial subject can be educational. I am not at all promoting arguing here, but the fact remains.

I do admit that the tone of this forum isnt as "seeker sensitive" as it used to be, but hey, have you checked out other forums? Have you ever been somewhere that everyone is telling everyone else how wonderful they are? This place is very civil in comparison.

Stick around and keep posting. really. we like it. :-)

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Jason,

I am sorry that you were offended by some on this board. Obviously you are a person who cares about the fisheries as many of us do.

Many here do not want you to leave and feel sad about this too.

I am making a group apology to you in hopes you will feel more welcome here.

Once and a while things do get out of hand on an open forum.

[gene goss]

I have a question for you Bill Kiene......could a fly shop sell only barbless flies and barbless hooks.......you would be the first fly fishing store to make a very big statment about safe handing of fish......people will kept buying barbed flies, and barded hooks if you keep selling them.

[Jgoding]

Personally I thought your handled yourself quite well about the pic you posted with the dudes fingers through that fish's gills. Sorry other's disagreed.

[OceanSunfish]

It's these kind of instances that embarass me as a person who fly fishes.

I am an angler that prides himself as being a well rounded angler who utilizes all tools available for legal sportfishing, i.g.; fly rod/reel, conventional casting, spinning, and the venerable Disney/Pixar fishing rods with my small children. I learned a long time ago that fly rod/reel tactics are not always the most effectual, best, and (aghast!) funnest way to catch fish.

I've enjoyed Jason's reports and pictures. I hope he'll reconsider he decision and return to this forum. In the meantime, those of you that were so quick to judge a person before getting to know him/her and lecture the virtues of whatever it was you felt compelled to do so, open your eyes please.

Based on what I know of Jason so far, he is not the problematic fisherman. He's far from it.

Some of you need to get in your car and drive around Northern CA for a week and learn just how many "opportunistic" fisherman there are loading their freezers or selling their catch legally or illegally for pure profit right now. Do you think these are the folks out there in the mud saving fish or writing letters to their representative or attending hearings to defeat AB1253? NO! It may come as a surprise to many of you, but there was a quiet 'majority' sitting and waiting for the orginal AB1253 to pass so that they could begin the unregulated harvesting of striped bass. Don't believe me? Right now, Asian restaurants and markets are offering up to $13 a pound for live halibut and $6 a pound for fresh, gutted and gilled halibut. With our current economy, there were a lot of commercial fishing licenses sold for the 2009 halibut season.

I like to fish to get away from the 'rat race' of every day life. Now, it appears some are hellbent to make bring fly fishing into the race. Why?

[ALAN MAX]

AMEN!!! OceanSunFish,an way to go Jason stay grounded!!!

[windwalker]

"I will continue to post my adventures, with but one request, if anyone here has a comment or concern which may be a potentially "hot topic" issue, please use my private messaging box, and I will respond." by jason


Jason, PM sent...........just kidding, fish on.

[john]

We're all free to fish barbed, barbless, baited, artificial or hookless- whatever personal choice and/or the regs require. Maybe it's how you perceive fish health, maybe it's the health of guide/boat companion. That's for you to decide for yourself, and me for myself, as long as we're all within the rules. Interestingly, here in WI our trout season runs May to Sept. We've also had a C&R, artificial only, barbless only, early trout season, for about 10 years. It runs March to May. This year, after studying the barbless "effect" for those 10 years, the Dept. of Natural Resources proposed a rule to scrap the barbless requirement, b/c they could not scientifically verify that mortality rates were significantly different barbless, compared with barbed hooks.

[nightgoat]

Well, I should probably just keep my mouth shut but....

I suggest everyone go back and read the replies in the Shad forum to Jason's posts. Please tell me which of them are elitist or judgemental. My guess is that my reply was the harshest, but all I was trying to point out was that not EVERY fish that you catch ( and by you I mean everyone on this board, myself included) does NOT swim away unharmed. If that is offensive in some way then I apologize. Perhaps I should have phrased it differently.

I think this whole thing has been way overblown and I will try to refrain from addressing it in the future.

I should add that I really do appreciate the reports and I'm glad Jason decided to stay.

Thanks,

Joe

[Dabalone]

Obviously an accumulation of remarks over time and from other threads that set this off, but its good the air is cleared. I enjoy seeing the pics hope they continue, glad you are staying Jason.

[Frank Alessio]

Now that Releasing Shad has been Discussed.... Lets talk about the survival rate of any
fish caught on the other side of the river from Olive Ave. If you know the area you know
those fish (especially Shad) are DOL..... Dead On landing. I know the limit is 25......