Little Truckee.... Info Needed....

[bclem81]

Looking to head up there on weds, just wondering if anyone is planing a day trip before then, or if someone has gone up there in the past week or so. I need to know how that road is doing for driveability. I have a tj with 4" lift and muddy 33" so as long as its not horrible bad i can make it up there.

any info would be great

thanks
brian

[gilligan]

We just got about 6 inches of snow here in Hirschdale, but it is warm and should melt by Wed. You should make it out no probs in your rig.

www.gilligansguideservice.blogspot.com

[bclem81]

thanks for the info. guess once i get there ill just 4hi it and punch it. hahaha. bring the come alongs and tow straps.

[davkrat]

I was there on Thursday evening and there was hardly any snow on the road. I have never fished there before and received the big Goose Egg! Water was featurless and moving quickly through the meadow section. I should have tried the Truckee as pocket water would have been much easier with the "high" flows. If you know the river I'm sure you'll do better than I did. I doubt 6" will stop you but the river conditions might suck?

[bclem81]

i am suprised that you got a big goose egg. the lt usually fishes very well this time of yr. but hey u will just have to get out there next time and wack um. well with only 6"s of snow, i laugh at that type of danger. bring it white stuff.

well i will be up there for sure on weds, if you see a white lifted jeep ill be somewhere in that area of the river. come down and say hi. maybe ill have some fish stories for ya. ill be with a guy thats about 6.5 350lbs, i am only 6ft but will have a orange chest/back pack on.

thanks again guys for all the info. especially the last one stating not to much snow on the road. that was what i was really looking for. thanks

good luck next times

[BigOkieWhiteBoy916]

ill be with a guy thats about 6.5 350lbs

Sounds like someone I know. :D

[troutbm]

Don't give this chump any info !!!!! HAhA, J/K, Wassssup Brian !

[bclem81]

martinez, hummmm, thomas and thomas, interesting, wonder who that could be.

what up shaun. when we gettin together to slay some fish.

[bigtj]

quote: "i am suprised that you got a big goose egg"

Dude the Little T and Big T send people home fishless all the time. The little T especially when it's low, the fish get skittish. And just when you think you know it all, both rivers will send you home with your butt in a nice package with wrapping paper and ribbons. That's what makes them so fun to fish.

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

This thread caught my eye. I noticed that it was started by "bclem81" and in his second post he responded to a fella who had 0 fish brought to hand on a recent trip to the LT. bclem81 responded with "...usually fishes really well this time of year..."

My comment is that it (the section below Stampede dam) has only been open to fly fishing in the winter since March 1 07. So it has only been open for about 1-1/2 winter/early springs. So my question to bclem81 is: Is your experience fishing the LT for the last 1-1/2 winters the basis for your comment about it fishing well?

If so, please educate me as to what techniques/flies you use.

Frank R. Pisciotta

[easymends]

This thread caught my eye. I noticed that it was started by "bclem81" and in his second post he responded to a fella who had 0 fish brought to hand on a recent trip to the LT. bclem81 responded with "...usually fishes really well this time of year..."

My comment is that it (the section below Stampede dam) has only been open to fly fishing in the winter since March 1 07. So it has only been open for about 1-1/2 winter/early springs. So my question to bclem81 is: Is your experience fishing the LT for the last 1-1/2 winters the basis for your comment about it fishing well?

If so, please educate me as to what techniques/flies you use.

Frank R. Pisciotta

Arent you a guide there?

[Bull_Dog]

Maybe you should hire him to take you fishing for the day.\\:D/

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

Easy Mend---Well, yes I am a fly fishing guide and full-time resident of Truckee. I'm also a perpetual student of this mutual passion we all share. Consequently, I learn things all the time. If someone can inform me of a new concept or technique; I'm always receptive. Maybe the initial poster could impart something to the board that would make us more productive fly anglers. That was the intent of my post. There is no stealth intended.

The fella who started this thread had seemed surprised that someone fished the LT in late March and got blanked. To me that is not a startling event; most especially since it has only been opened to winter angling since March 1 '07. So, I too am learning its idiosyncrasies during that time of year. For me it is like learning a new water. Now all bets are off if he is talking the inlet; I'm talking the river, most especially in the "Meadow".

Someone else commented that the LT and the BT are not easy streams; I concur fully. I just finished an article on the LT. Near the end I say "You will experience jubilation and despair here; regardless, it is fun...LT is being loved to death!."

Here' s a Pandora's Box...I'm of the opinion that the LT is being too heavily impacted...most especially by commercial fly fishing guides. I've approached the California Department of Fish and Game and suggested that there should be restrictions on guide usage. Thus far I haven't heard any response. I'm thinking 4-8 days per month when commercial guiding is restricted. Opinions???

I'm more concerned about the fishery...not making a buck

Frank R. Pisciotta

[jigger]

High fishing pressure sucks. And a large portion of pressure on the LT is guide pressure. But I don't think regulation is the answer. No telling where that will lead. During high season, the fish are beat up and paranoid. The anglers are competing for the good spots. Many will not get a good spot, or at least one that is rested, and many won't have a productive day. Next time, many will go elsewhere. I believe it is already self regulating. I don't fish the LT in the high season and many others probably feel the same. Maybe it is best left to the guides with the clients who are the same folks that wait in lines at crowded high priced ski resorts on weekends. Sorry, that may be a little harsh.
Guides should self regulate and not flog the same spot (there's really only around a half dozen) all day to put someone not competent at flyfishing on to a wild trout for the tip. Must be a tough business. Easy for me to say

[Bull_Dog]

What is the difference in someone fishing on there own or someone getting some help from an experienced fisherman as far as pressure goes. Guides help anglers who are new or need some help. They teach anglers proper etiquette etc. The anglers who fish with guides are far less harm than the less experienced anglers who try to do it on there own. You never see an angler fishing with a guide wading in the reds or killing a fish because they did not release it properly.

I think there is some other underlying reason you are trying to limit the guide days Frank.

Your post was not about learning new techniques it was about hazing the guy that said he usually had some luck in early April. He was just chating with a fellow angler and you tried to call him out on it.

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

High fishing pressure sucks. And a large portion of pressure on the LT is guide pressure.
I agree fully

...anglers are competing for the good spots.
Agreed. Unfortunately the prime areas are constantly occupied by "hole hogs". Such behavior, indivduals and guides, is a problem, most especially, when there are no crowds. You'd think everyone would "rotate" up and down the river so that everyone gets some time on prime holding water.

I believe it is already self regulating. I don't fish the LT in the high season and many others probably feel the same.
Well, that is my point; it is a public water and it is being abused and overcrowded by commercial fly fishing fishing guides. There are many who would love to fish the LT, but don't because is is impacted by guides. I know because I hear about it...


Maybe it is best left to the guides with the clients who are the same folks that wait in lines at crowded high priced ski resorts on weekends. Sorry, that may be a little harsh.
Yeah, it is, but you're being honest. I understand your sentiment. Being a devil's advocate here, but it is no different if you go to other states and you hire a guide. Is it?

Guides should self regulate and not flog the same spot..."
BINGO! That's the reason why I started on this subject about the LT, it isn't major issue on the BT...simply because there is lots of water. During the last two seasons (prior to this season) I've been mentioning and inquiring about excessive guide impact on the LT to other guides. I've been suggesting that guides should spread out more; from the client's perspective of enjoying an uncrowded fly angling experience and from the guides's (admittedly) self-interest. of providing a quality experience for the client. Well, it hasn't seem to sink-in](http://kiene.com/forums/images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif*,) so I'm looking for public input on this matter; maybe there are some novel ideas that can be provided by this board community.

I can just speak for 3-4 of us local guides; we'll coordinate as to where we'll be during the day so that we don't have to compete for water on both the LT and the BT. It seems to work-out for us and the clients.

...Must be a tough business. Easy for me to say
I appreciate the fact that you've expressed your opinion. Plus it is done in a civil matter...that is all ask. This if an important matter from my perspective.

Frank R. Pisciotta

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

[QUOTE=Bull_Dog;59362]What is the difference in someone fishing on there own or someone getting some help from an experienced fisherman as far as pressure goes.
None
Guides help anglers who are new or need some help.
Agreed
They teach anglers proper etiquette etc. The anglers who fish with guides are far less harm than the less experienced anglers who try to do it on there own.
That can be debatable relative to impact on a fishery.

You never see an angler fishing with a guide wading in the reds
true...but I've seen guides having clients fishing over actively spawning fish

on;or killing a fish because they did not release it properly.
Well...yes. But, using 6x and 7x on a 2-4 pound trout (that are available on the LT) IMO, lessens the chances of releasing a trout in survivable condition.

I think there is some other underlying reason you are trying to limit the guide days Frank.
I'm thinking what you perceive as "an underlying reason" is obvious...there is too much guide impact on the LT to the detriment of the fishery. Do you disagree?


Your post was not about learning new techniques
...it was an honest inquiry about technique and/or flies

it was about hazing the guy that said he usually had some luck in early April. He was just chating with a fellow angler and you tried to call him out on it.
That was not my intent as mentioned in my second post...if that is what you think you're entitled. I'm up to any civil discussion on this matter of guide impact/excessive use... as long as we can ultimately agree to disagree.

Frank R. Pisciotta

[Darian]

This is an interesting thread. I've stopped fishing some of the waters in the Sierras I traditionally fished during most of the year due to crowding. :( Now, I tend to fish certain lakes, rivers and streams only when I know that crowding will be minimal (early spring/late fall). IMHO, people (guides and individuals) tend to congregate on waters where the fishing is good (for obvious reasons). In this case, the LT is, also, limited in area. Some sort of regulation (number of days or number of fisherman, etc.) is indicated but not probable unless implemented by DFG. :neutral:

I don't feel that privatization is desirable but last fall I fished on the Pleasant Valley Creek preserve and found it to be a really great experience. There is a daily limit to the number of anglers allowed on that preserve and the uncrowded, quiet fishing is the result. :D

I was one of the fortunate ones who found Pleasant Valley creek back in the early 70's when it was pristine and watched as it deteriorated as more and more fisherman found it. Then the usual problems with campers garbage and a fire started from a campfire developed.... :( All of that has been reversed by the current owner. Maybe this is where we're headed.... :confused:

[tallguy]

I agree with Frank here, I think some guide restrictions, whether self imposed or by DFG, would be good for the health of the LT and other crowded fisheries. These days everyone seems to be a guide, with a large party in tow, anywhere the fishing is halfway decent. I live less than 10 miles from the dam parking lot on the LT, and though I love fishing the river, I rarely go during peak seasons. I pretty much have to fish it mid week, and even then there can be too many people. I personally don't find it as much of a restriction since I have time to figure it out, but if I wanted to bring a friend there to fish, they tend to struggle due to the crowding and wary, pressured fish.

The crowds, or even the possibility of crowds, changes the way I fish there too, I become more of a hole hog though I prefer to keep moving down the river. If you work a hole and leave it, then find that every other spot you wanted to fish was full too, and in the interim period, someone moved into your original hole, you are out of luck. Better to stay and hog, cause you could get shut out. This especially happens during prime hatch periods like dusk, you end up parking yourself.

So I think limiting guides to no guiding 4-8 days a month might be a good idea. Having 1-2 weekend days with no guides, and a handful of weekdays, could improve the fishery health. Also, equally important might be habitat improvement in the downstream areas below the meadows that might help shift some of the crowds. The meadows proper, as well as the downstream canyon, has some areas that don't seem to hold as many or as nice fish, so improving habitat there could help lessen the densities in upstream areas.

[Scott V]

When is the peak season,I do not want to go during that time. When I fished it was in November, but I do plan on going back up this year but do not want to be there during the "peak season".

[bclem81]

well, there are 2 sides here, do i give up my secrets, which they kinda arent, or do i keep my mouth closed. ill do a bit of both, i have been fishing the lt pretty much since it has opened yr round, and i definitly had my slow, very slow starts. but know, when i go out i still have slow days, but i have great days as well. all of my fishing is done mid to upper stream. my average fish day is hooking about 8 landing half of them. some days i have 10-15 fish days as well. i would have a better landing % if i didnt use my 3wt up there. but its just to much fun on a 3wt. anyways as far as flys go, some are hand tied some are bought. mayfly immitations, midges, and on occation a pink san juan or even a stonefly. for those that fish the winter time u know what i am talking about. the grayish black ones that are all over the snow. (as far as flys used this is where i keep my secrets to myself, my fly selection is my fly collection). my biggest fish that being a 26" brown came on a fly that most people probably wouldnt even think of using. not gonna say what it is but it was a size 24. this fly was my go to in the fall winter time. i love the fall and winter time. small flys, light tippet, and my 3wt. its a blast. i fish with a lot of great fly guys, and i am always learning when i go out, whether its me just looking and scoping or one of my buddys showing me something. i turn over rocks, look at the surrounding bushes and trees, just so i can have an advantage over the fish. anything helps. and if i have 0 fish by noon, here comes the san juan worm, or something small and rubberlegged. i never said the lt is easy. and just fyi, i do not do well on the BT. everytime i have gone out its either 0 fish or one or 2 small ones. thats y when i go up there i hammer the LT. especially from aug to dec. road permittin though.

sometimes things are ment one and and taken the other, especially when emailing or typing. sorry if i ruffled feathers, never ment to do that what so ever. we are all on here for a reason, to have fun, fish, and learn.

[Scott V]

BCLEM81, when you caught that 26" brown on the size 24, did you not have a camera with you and asked some guy that was out there to take a picture and then email you the photo? The reason I ask was because when I was there a guy caught what he said was his biggest brown and I recall him saying he caught it on a size 24, so I took a couple pictures and emailed them to him. Is that you by chance?

[bclem81]

no that wasnt me, i was with a buddy of mine, and he took the pic for me. man that thing was huge. that day we hooked into about 25 fish landed 17 or 18 fish, about 85% were browns, the smallest brown was about 17-18"s. and i got pics to show what an epic day on the lt can be. man i cant wait for another day like that.

here is the pic of the dirty o brownie. all done on a tfo 7'6" 3wt. i love this rod.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh114/bclemens81/fish027.jpg

[Bull_Dog]

I agree with Frank here, I think some guide restrictions, whether self imposed or by DFG, would be good for the health of the LT and other crowded fisheries. These days everyone seems to be a guide, with a large party in tow, anywhere the fishing is halfway decent. I live less than 10 miles from the dam parking lot on the LT, and though I love fishing the river, I rarely go during peak seasons. I pretty much have to fish it mid week, and even then there can be too many people. I personally don't find it as much of a restriction since I have time to figure it out, but if I wanted to bring a friend there to fish, they tend to struggle due to the crowding and wary, pressured fish.

The crowds, or even the possibility of crowds, changes the way I fish there too, I become more of a hole hog though I prefer to keep moving down the river. If you work a hole and leave it, then find that every other spot you wanted to fish was full too, and in the interim period, someone moved into your original hole, you are out of luck. Better to stay and hog, cause you could get shut out. This especially happens during prime hatch periods like dusk, you end up parking yourself.

So I think limiting guides to no guiding 4-8 days a month might be a good idea. Having 1-2 weekend days with no guides, and a handful of weekdays, could improve the fishery health. Also, equally important might be habitat improvement in the downstream areas below the meadows that might help shift some of the crowds. The meadows proper, as well as the downstream canyon, has some areas that don't seem to hold as many or as nice fish, so improving habitat there could help lessen the densities in upstream areas. There actually are guiding restrictions. There are only a handful of permits to guide that area. Someone has to die to obtain one currently. As are the rules on humdreds of streams and rivers in the U.S. They do try to limit the guide days. some anglers need or want to be guided why should they be the ones not to fish on selected days. All you are going to accomplish is to have the guides fishing on said days. Then it would really get pounded.

[tallguy]

Well, I certainly wouldn't disagree with the statement that there are only a handful of legit, registered guides for the area, I have no knowledge of the subject. But if I had to estimate, I would say that I routinely see more than a "handful" of guided parties on the LT and other nearby streams over time. There are often 1-2 guided parties on small areas of the river at prime times, and more on the weekends. And I don't think I see the same guides over and over, seems to be quite a variety. It would seem that Frank has a gentleman's agreement with some of them, but I would bet that many guided parties that I see aren't part of that, which could contribute to crowding and the hole hogging phenomena. Frank, do you think there are more than a "handful" of guides contributing to the crowding during peak seasons?

I'd have no problem with a complete moratorium of fishing for 1-2 days of the week in fact, for guides and anyone else, even if it concentrates pressure on other days. I think those days of rest are important for the fish, and I'm more than willing to sacrafice personal satisfaction and fun for anything that helps the fishery in general, short of complete closure (and even thats okay for rare and endangered species)

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

[Tall Guy---my 2 cents...QUOTE=tallguy;59422]Well, I certainly wouldn't disagree with the statement that there are only a handful of legit, registered guides for the area, I have no knowledge of the subject.
By "...legit, registered guides" I assuming you mean those who are registered with the California Department of Fish & Game. Off the top of my head I can think of six (6) plus myself who are Truckee residents or live near by. The numbers increase substantially if one includes the numerous guides that work out South Tahoe or Reno fly shops. I have no idea as too how many there are in those two shops

...I routinely see more than a "handful" of guided parties on the LT...
Agreed, that is why I opened this discussion; there seems to too many for the relatively small area. I feel that common sense should prevail that we (guides) should use some common sense and not unduly impact a small area.

It would seem that Frank has a gentleman's agreement with some of them,
Correct

but I would bet that many guided parties that I see aren't part of that, which could contribute to crowding and the hole hogging phenomena. Frank, do you think there are more than a "handful" of guides contributing to the crowding during peak seasons?
Well, "handful" is a nebulous term...I'm willing to admit that it can be perceived that I contribute to the problem. but I feel I make an attempt to coordinate with local guides so that we spread-out./COLOR]

I'd have no problem with a complete moratorium of fishing for 1-2 days of the week in fact, for guides and anyone else, even if it concentrates pressure on other days.
We're in agreement. I'll be honest, I wasn't a happy camper when they opened the LT to all year fishing. I feel the fish need a rest. I believe in Montana they have some restrictive fishing on the Big Hole...probably others
I think those days of rest are important for the fish, and I'm more than willing to sacrafice personal satisfaction and fun for anything that helps the fishery in general,
T[COLOR="Red"]o me that is the prime focus...the fishery...
What is a reasonable solution to this problem of too much impact on the LT? Ideally an arrangement that would satisfy both individuals and commercial interests. Is it possible?


Frank R. Pisciotta

[Frank R. Pisciotta]

bclem81----Thanks for your reply; it was well thought out and informative. My intent was not to "call you out" as I've been accused. I feel my second post explained that was not my intent. It was merely an inquiry as to whether you had a new technique or fly of which I wasn't aware.

But the fact that the subject heading had the Little Truckee caught my attention. That stream is near and dear to me; I've been fishing it since 1979 when I built my first place in Truckee. So I feel qualified to express my opinions.

I'm of the opinion it is being abused. To me it would be a perfect candidate or test-case by the CA D F & G for restricting number of anglers or days when it is closed to fishing; whether it be individuals or "legal" guides. As I mentioned in my last post to Tall-Guy; I was not enthused when it became open all year.

I'm concerned about the fishery. Matter of fact I've been awarded two "Streamkeeper" awards from California Trout. The last was 2000 when the executive director of CT said the main reason why it was awarded to me was because "...I speak for the trout". Yes I do. I also donate 1% of my gross fees to the Truckee-Tahoe Trout Fund, am involved in "hands-on" fishery projects and am politically active when it comes to fishery issues.

As far as I'm concerned if you fish this area a lot..."...put your $$$ where you're flies are"; make a donation to the TTFF or get involved in fishery political issues or volunteer your body for hands on projects. This is not intended for you; it is everyone who loves to fish this area on a regular basis. A lot of anglers are takers and do not give back...one of my peeves.

Thanks for listening. By the way I too am a veteran...from a different era. Sometimes I can get on my high-horse and feel that also entitles me to express my opinion. If I've offended anyone, my apologies; I'm merely expressing an honest opinion.

...I'm going fishing now; I'm spending too much time on this.

Frank R. Pisciotta

[Bull_Dog]

Frank you are quick to call out the sub guides for other permit holders. How about the ones you let use your permit and then illegally start their own guide business using your permit. Last year the biggest problem was Reno Fly Shop guide Arlo Townsend and independent guide John Roberts. Arlo did 99% of his summer guiding at the top parking lot at the L.T. in the same holes daily. He is no longer working for the Reno Fly Shop. That should help some. John is well known in the area for sitting on the 6-10 hole for 4 to 5 hours. Pretty much the rest of the guides are great with each other and anglers fishing on their own. Most of the other guides including yourself guide the Big T as much as the L.T.

[Oskar]

there are a lot of fish spawning on the LT right now. People should be careful where they wade.

[bclem81]

oskar great point. i was going to mention the same thing. lots of fish spawning right now so watch where u wade as well as let them do their thing.

[sbspfp]

If nymphing use san juan worms (preferably the gold bead type) as the top fly when nymphing and a mighty may or mighty mite as the lower fly....pulled some nice browns out a week or so ago. Don't be afraid to use weight...get the fly down there!

[roostersgt]

Fished the Lil Truckee today. Don't be left out! Get there now, before all the grass is trampled and laid bare by the masses. I couldn't believe the number of fly fishers who arrived after 10am and parked next to the other cars in the near full turn-outs and parking lots. Parties of 4 anglers together to fish a tiny section of this small river? What could they have been thinking? What a zoo. Thankfully, we didn't run into any jerks.

Okay, enough of my ranting about all the out of work people milking the unemployment system and enjoying a lovely Friday fishing with 20 of their closests buds. Now on to the report. A friend caught a 16" rainbow on a micro may, I caught a 3.5 lb, or so, colorful spawner on a #16 red copper john. Saw another big fish rise and spooked one, but that's about it for 5 hours of effort. Lovely weather, slow tough fishing.

[jigger]

I know the LT is a crowded C&R fish farm. The thing is,....right now,.... with the high flows, tailwaters like the LT are about the only thing going. If you put the 25 people who would have spread out on the truckee today on top of the 25 people who were already fishing the short 2.5 miles of meadow stream on the LT,.......you've got a scene. Being a M-F man, I'm trying to figure where to best get my fish on tomorrow.........

[roostersgt]

I'm trying to figure out how to get all those people more interested in shad fishing. Less driving and way more water. The Truckee on Friday was blown out by meltoff and completely unfishable. This no doubt sent its regulars etc... to the LT. It looked like the Nimbus Basin during the salmon spawn. Frustrated fly fishers who didn't arrive early enough decided to park at the end, near the dam and start fishing downstream, which really screwed it up for those of us who thought to arrive early and fish correctly, upstream. Cut our day a couple of hours short for sure. I don't mind too much if someone is fishing ahead of me, I'll slow down and let the water rest a bit, but someone cutting me off by fishing downstream because they didn't get there soon enough is a little chaffing, even on a busy C&R farm.

Steve