A question from "the rest of us"

[Ed Wahl]

Just what in blazes is wrong with you steelheaders?

It seems that in 'your' forum to post anything is to open yourself up to attacks from other board members.

Every single 'rogue' thread we've had has come from the 'Steelhead and Salmon forum.

The rudeness lately has become quite embarassing, to me and everyone else I know from this board.

If it's not where you fish, it's how you fish. If not that, it's where and how you wade. If not that it's what kind of tackle you use.

If nothing else, as in the case of someone just wanting to know some river conditions, you'll make something up to attack them on.

Jumpin Jiminy, you guys are bringing us all down.

Whatever happened to politeness? Common courtesy? Manners? Have you lost them all?

Now, before you post that it's all MY fault, ball up your hands, keep 'em balled up for 10 minutes. Think about this for a while. What I'm looking for is a rather thoughtful reply. Seriously. My original question still stands, just what is wrong with you steelheaders?

Ed

[Fats]

Ed... it's all your fault!

:-\" :-\" :-\"

[Fats]

;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)

[mr. 3 wt.]

Just what in blazes is wrong with you steelheaders?





Ed

I guess if you don't know, your not a true steelheader!

[Ed Wahl]

Ay, it's only been five minutes, ball your hands back up.:)

[Bob Laskodi]

UHHHH OHHHHHH, here we go again!!!!

[Ed Wahl]

Maybe you're right Carl. If that's the case I will apoligize to you and everyone else on this board. Let's give it a little time.
Ed

[Phil Synhorst]

I think what Ed is trying to say, is that there are quite a few of us who aren't "true steelheaders":rolleyes:, who used to enjoy reading the posts in that forum.

However some of you guys are so full of yourselves, that a thread with pics of nice fish, or even a question about river conditions, is open for hostility.

Even after Bill himself gave general warning to ALL of us, that he will not tolerate it.

I've had a lot of fun learning and chating with quite a few of you on this board. And if this post makes me the first casualty and gets me banned, so be it. My question is, how petty can it get on a fishing forum?

Get over yourselves, you act like a bunch of divas, or prima donnas. For Christ teeth, we're supposed to be fishermen. NOT a bunch of whiney little girls.

[Kurt P]

Ed,

I’ve wondered the same thing myself.

I theorize that there are a small subset of members participating in the Steelhead board who are hoping to keep the newcomers to the sport to as low a number as possible by intentionally trying to portray themselves as unpleasant people. I know I’ve often thought to myself, “why would I want to join the ranks of such an uptight bunch?” after reading some of the threads.

But some of the comments that are made (like accusing someone of hovering over hatchery pipes to line fish simply because they state the AR usually stays clear after a rain) are so outlandish that they must be contrived. Nobody could REALLY be that nasty about something as recreational as fishing, could they?

I applaude your bravery, Ed. I've thought about posing a similar question myself, but was feaful of the attack it would generate from the Steelhead Brethren...and sure enough, Carl stepped up to the plate. C'mon, Carl. You really think bclem81 was 'having fun with it' when he got accused of hovering over a pipe to line fish? Get serious.

I guess I just drew a bull's eye on my back, too.

[Darian]

Ya know, I'm not sure which thread you're referring to, Carl.... :confused: Several threads started out to be very productive but ended up with people lecturing, chastising or making personal remarks about another for whatever they saw as a violation of "the code' (behaviors) or the law. For whatever the reason, the tone of discussion on this forum has taken a distinct change toward the negative. :neutral:

I've contributed a few of those as well.... :rolleyes: It's not easy to get your point across about something that you're passionate about without potentially insulting others as we're not talking face to face where being impolite will get a very negative response (in a hurry ;-) ).

Frankly I enjoy a good discussion (even heated :nod: ) but it can't turn personal like has happened so often, recently. :neutral: It's easy to be misunderstood and easier still to make negative comments while hiding behind anonymity (as in using "handles" instead of names :confused: ).

As an example of negative type of post, I quote Mr. 3wt. from this thread, "I guess if you don't know, your not a true steelheader!" :smirk: in response to the original question. What was the point of that post other than to cause an argument or identify the original poster as "not one of us" :question: He brought up a legitimate question.... :neutral: The response was hardly a legitimate answer. Altho this one was mild, many posts in this forum have been much more personal and pointed. :neutral:

I've been Salmon and Steelheading regularly on the coast and inland since the winter of 1968 but have quit posting much of anything in this forum as I don't feel that everyone (with a few notable exceptions) listens with an open mind. :confused:

Soooo, in summary, I don't have an answer to the original question. To all you elite Steelheaders out there, post away and have a bunch of fun at the expense of each other if that's your thing. I'm outta here.... 8) 8)

[Fats]

It seems like a bunch of us are wearing wool right next to the skin... we seem to be kind of irritable as of late. I'm blaming my behavior on an impending root canal (second in about 3 weeks) and the fact that Kaiser was having issues filling my Rx for pain killers. It's got me a little on edge...

The Advil is kicking in now... a slug of bourbon and I should be set for the night.

[Darian]

Root Canal.... :question: :eek: :eek: I feel your pain, Bro.... :( Get better soon and post on.... :cool:

[jbird]

Hey! Lighten up! Heres a flash from the past to put a smile on our faces :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLhyD1Q-qlI&eurl

[Fats]

It hurts to smile but.... that was funny!

[wjorg]

"I've contributed a few of those as well.... It's not easy to get your point across about something that you're passionate about without potentially insulting others as we're not talking face to face where being impolite will get a very negative response (in a hurry ). "

Darian makes a good point. I personally have been a jerk and annoying at times, and out of hand(I am in a constant state of improvement)....but there are times where emotional reactions to a point being made are way overboard. I've made a particular comment or observation like "improperly pegged beads can harm fish easier than pettis unreal eggs"(a horse I beat to death, sorry for flogging it one more time) and all of a sudden people are responding like I said bead fishing is bad, not so.....I would like to be a better person and be able to communicate with everybody effectively and pleasantly, "but I'd also like a toilet made out of solid gold and it just isn't in the cards, baby."

"Whatever happened to politeness? Common courtesy? Manners? Have you lost them all?"-------Some have them on the board, some on the river, its tough to have them everywhere, every time....but it sure is nice when people do. Some people are real polite on the board, and real REAL impolite off the board, or at least out of public view. And I'm not talking about river etiquette or anything. I find that disparity laughable and humorous at best.


The loss of verbal context creates a difference between a point you may be making(without trying to write a dissertation) and what someone else interprets from your writing. You do not have to read posts from particular individuals if you do not like their general contributions. There even is an ignore list.

I loved the video J-Bird, its absolutely hilarious indeed.

[David Lee]

To everyone here -

There's a BIG difference between a thought-provoking post/open CIVIL debate ...... and plain ol' shit-stirring . Some of the posts I've seen on here over the past few months have been WAAAAY past the line of good taste or civility . If you cannot tell the difference between being acceptable in public vs. being a prick , you don't belong here .

Each and every one of you SHOULD know the difference .

It's getting to be a lot like watching a Jerry Springer episode - if you really get off on being nasty and shitty and somehow find excitement in being combative , take a hint now - it isn't welcome .

This isn't a 'boys-only' club - there are more than a few Women and youngsters that read every forum , every day . Not to mention the new folks that have come here to LEARN and relate . Nearly every week .... I have at least one newbie PM me and ask why so and so is being ruthless in public - that NEVER used to happen , EVER . We all should be working to make this board a place where people can feel at home and post their thoughts without being fodder for someones bad attitude . What if your Wife , or 7-year old Son , or 15 year old Daughter was reading these posts ?? I've said it before ..... think before you pull the trigger on anyone , lest this place turns into something no one wants to be involved with .

The worst part of the current trend of pissing/moaning/hacking on everyone is ..... having to see poor ol' Bill Kiene , who is one of the nicest , most non-confrontational people you'd EVER want to meet ..... having to wade in , edit and delete crap that you damn well know doesn't belong here , and feel the STRESS of this bullshit while He has a business to run . There's no excuse for putting Him in that position .

By all means , y'all have a right to voice your opinions - we ALL want to hear them , and I personally welcome hearing what you have to say about whatever subject ...... BUT - if you just can't seem to keep a civil tongue in your head without an all-out attack on somebody , go someplace else . That goes for jumping in on a hairy post and dumping fuel on the fire - it isn't funny . Every person here can communicate WITHOUT pissing and snapping at one another .

And ..... for what it's worth - I don't consider ANYONE here to be my 'enemy' . We used to be almost a FAMILY just a few short months ago . Remember what things here were like ?????????????????????

David

[ANDO]

I am one of those people who thought I would learn something on this forum, but does not feel like it is worth poking the hornets’ nest to ask a question.
After spending about 2 years in crappy deserts (Iraq followed by 29 Palms), I could not wait to move to cool, wet northern California and learn to steelhead. I have been a fly guy for years, so I thought I would be pretty savvy to the culture. What a rude awakening this winter has been. I know that 95% of the people on this board are humble, polite people…but that other 5% is sure an unpleasant bunch.
The worst ones are the faux tough-guys who are overly confrontational. I am waiting for a sociologist to prove my theory that someone’s online “toughness” is inversely related to their real life reaction to confrontation.
If you are someone who is really aching for a fight, you should go post on the Drake magazine forum (where they will probably eat you alive).
I do appreciate Bill keeping this forum running. Even though I don't post, I guess I am what they call a "lurker".

[Phil Synhorst]

jbird.....that was great.:thumbsup: I remember seeing that posted right about the time I joined; I laughed just as hard this time.

Thanks

[wjorg]

"What if your Wife , or 7-year old Son , or 15 year old Daughter was reading these posts ?? I've said it before ..... think before you pull the trigger on anyone , lest this place turns into something no one wants to be involved with .

The worst part of the current trend of pissing/moaning/hacking on everyone is ..... having to see poor ol' Bill Kiene , who is one of the nicest , most non-confrontational people you'd EVER want to meet ..... having to wade in , edit and delete crap that you damn well know doesn't belong here , and feel the STRESS of this bullshit while He has a business to run . There's no excuse for putting Him in that position ."

I couldn't agree more with your point, and blast me if you will, but isnt it Hypocritical to talk about wives/daughters/guppy not being able to go on the board anymore and then drop a BS bomb 2 sentences later?

Sometimes it just seems like some on this board get away with what others dont....

I said cajones in response to another post, I was outta line they way I did it.....but I think bullshit is more offensive to the untrained young eye than cajones......

Im not trying to blast you David, Im just pointing out that one minute someone blasts somebody and its ok, almost laughable, the next minute its not ok.....who is the great judge of whats acceptable?

Regardless, I get your point, and will myself continue to make better efforts at civility.

[Kurt P]

Carl,

I apologize about my negative comments about you on the forum. I wrote them in ignorance, and that is inexcusable.

I'm sending you a more detailed explaination via PM, if you care to read it. It's civil, I promise.

Good fishing,

Kurt

[Kurt P]

Karl,

Cool. No hard feelings here, either.

Group hug, everyone?

[David Lee]

Walter -

If the WORST thing that happens in anyone's life today is seeing me drop the S-bomb , you can consider that a pretty GOOD day in the greater scheme of things .

Wouldn't you aggree ?

If my language has offended anyone , I'm sorry . I will make it a point to try harder NOT to swear .

David

[wjorg]

David, I would agree. I also do not believe your language offended anyone, I believe swearing spices things up a bit. Just getting back to the rule regarding the context of what is read is subjective to the readers emotional state. I will do my best to keep things civil nonetheless.

[jayclarkflyfishing]

Ando-
PM sent

Jay

[wjorg]

Some people really do take the liberty to get rude and nasty on PM's. Just tell them "STOP Private Messaging Me."

[Phil Synhorst]

To Everyone,

If you're reading this, I assume you have read my previous post using some quotes from Carl.

I'll let it be known right now, that I did not/do not intend to give him a bad name. He has been here a long time, and made many good contributions to this board.

Thanks, Phil


2/24
I have made some serious changes to my posts here, even deleted one. After going back and re-reading, getting pm's both positive and negative(but cordial), and asking the opinions of some; I realized it needed to be done.

In short, I believe I let myself fall into the same abyss that got me twisted in the first place. I became part of the problem. My apologies to EVERYONE, whether you agreed with what I posted or not.

I do stand by the origination of this thread, I think it needed to get out in the open.

I remembered something a long gone mentor tried to teach me. "Just because you can do something, doesn't mean that it's right, or that you should". I'll try to apply that advice on this board from now on, my hope is that others will too.

Bill Kiene...to you my deepest apology.

Phil

[norcal tom]

Cant we all just go fishing ????? Ha ha.

[Dustin Revel]

Rivers are Blown... we're becoming restless

[aaron]

Get some skis or a yak and go enjoy this weather cycle.

[Ed Wahl]

I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize to each and every member of this board for this thread that I started.

I'm sorry I put you all through that, espicially since I've railed about these kinds of threads myself. Now here I am bringing you all down.

My intent was to maybe bring a little community pressure to bear on the main offenders of these increasingly rude and out of control threads.

Carl, this thread had nothing to do with you.
It was the crack about lining steelies at the outflow pipe along with the subsequent BS, now gone,from another thread that got my panties got all wadded up.
All you had to do was ask.

When we ended our little email tirades with an agreement to drop it until we met up face to face I meant it and stuck to my word. This was not about you.
If you were offended by my swearing in a "P"M, I will apologize for that. But I think that's all I owe you for.

Everyone please, no more posts on this one, except for Carl.
Since I got the last word(2 words) on our last email, feel free to attack me one more time, I'm a big boy, I can take it.

But put a big fat fork in it after would you? Let's call it done.

[jbird]

Ed

you no good pig stealin salmon snaggin redd wad'n gun tot'n crack shoot'n..... :-) :-)

we luv ya man!

[Phil Synhorst]

Just so no one misses it. Please take a look at my updated post....bottom of page three.

[Hairstacker]

you no good pig stealin salmon snaggin redd wad'n gun tot'n crack shoot'n.....

I didn't know Ed stole pigs . . . . :lol:

[Phil Synhorst]

I didn't know Ed stole pigs . . . . :lol:

You've never been down wind of him then.:eek: :lol:

[wjorg]

Ed,
Phoenix from the ashes. No apology necessary.

I believe it was a good thing. I've said before that public shame brings faster results than private advice. But those results can always vary. At least for me, your post, and others PM's have helped me see how I, at least, can try to write and even verbally communicate in a way that allows for less negative context or interpretation.

Thank you.

[Bob Laskodi]

"Public shame" was the MO for an old Northern California oriented internet board that I used to post at frequently. Now, you're lucky if you see 10 posts a week there. It's a crying shame that the most popular NorCal FF board by far has been reduced to a pathetic shell of it's former self. All the "public shame" accomplished on that board chased folks away from posting. And most of the "public shame" posters on that board had bad reputations that I won't dare describe on this board. I'd really hate for this place to suffer the same fate.

[wjorg]

"Public shame" was the MO for an old Northern California oriented internet board that I used to post at frequently. Now, you're lucky if you see 10 posts a week there. It's a crying shame that the most popular NorCal FF board by far has been reduced to a pathetic shell of it's former self. All the "public shame" accomplished on that board chased folks away from posting. And most of the "public shame" posters on that board had bad reputations that I won't dare describe on this board. I'd really hate for this place to suffer the same fate.


....tell that to some of the recently exposed criminal members of congress.

[Cal]

"Public shame" was the MO for an old Northern California oriented internet board that I used to post at frequently. Now, you're lucky if you see 10 posts a week there. It's a crying shame that the most popular NorCal FF board by far has been reduced to a pathetic shell of it's former self. All the "public shame" accomplished on that board chased folks away from posting. And most of the "public shame" posters on that board had bad reputations that I won't dare describe on this board. I'd really hate for this place to suffer the same fate.

Bob Laskodi makes a very important point.

Are we willing to let our Forum degrade to a level where it is no longer any fun or of any use, as what happened to the NC FFF forum?

If we want to avoid the same fate I think we are going to have to agree that Public Shaming is an inappropriate and useless activity for this Forum. It rarely, if ever, adds any value and usually just incites a backlash and nasty free for all (as we have experienced in this Forum already).

The tone of our Private Messages should also be common courtesy.

I think it all comes down to; what is it that you want to gain from this Forum, enemies or friends ?

[bigtj]

I've gotten so many personal shots taken at me over the past year or so, some of it maybe deserved a lot of it not, so I've pretty much tried to keep a low profile here and stay out of the back and forth because it's not worth it and I don't want to contribute to negativity on the board. It does seem a lot of the darts are being thrown by newcomers. Regardless, being nice is all about personal accountability and asking the question, if you're always arguing, is it worth it?

Ed, there is no question you are a good guy, you started this thread with good intentions and have finished it with good ones as well so don't beat yourself up for it, it's good for all of us to take stock of the situation once in a while.