Redds

[Black Cloud]

I went up to Nimbus to see the the new spawning area for salmon and this is what I see. When I told them that they were standing in the redds they ask where should they stand. I told them out of the water. They eventually left. The other pictures are at Sailor Bar. People have been fishing out there so long I think it is a lost cause. If anyone knows these guys let them know . These pics were taken sat the 24th.

[BigOkieWhiteBoy916]

I went up to Nimbus to see the the new spawning area for salmon and this is what I see. When I told them that they were standing in the redds they ask where should they stand. I told them out of the water. They eventually left. The other pictures are at Sailor Bar. People have been fishing out there so long I think it is a lost cause. If anyone knows these guys let them know . These pics were taken sat the 24th.


It definitely make you mad watching these guys. Its even worse at the lower section of Sailor Bar by the island. People just don't know what they are doing.

Hopefully DFG will just shut it off to fishing.

[Bob Laskodi]

"Redd rakers" is the MO for the majority of fisherman on the upper A. This also includes fly fishers and I see an alarming number of them with spey/switch rods. Quite the comedy to see them chasing a butt hooked steelie all over the place trying to land it. Quite sad also, IMNSHO. It is a waste of time to even inform/educate them about it. The only real solution is to close the upper river all year long.

[Black Cloud]

Bob, two of those guys at Sailor were using spey rods. I also think that upper section should be closed during the spawning season.

James

[mr. 3 wt.]

I also agree. The sooner the better. Should have gotten a closer up pic. And the sign perhaps could be bigger and more of them.

[Fats]

How long to the reds stay bright and polished in the American River?

[Chris Gearhart]

When we see guys in areas like this how do we know if they are actually causing dammage to the redds? I dont fish the A but I fish a nearby river and I wade around redds alot. I always stay away from the polished areas (especially behind them). I am not being critical, I really want to make sure I dont do any dammage. Thanks for the input.

Chris

[Black Cloud]

They have signs up on both sides of the river at the hatchery. People don't read or they ignore them. As far as walking around, I think in front of a redd would stir up debris and silt. Walking behind would be better with a good distance.

James

[Notch]

I think there is a common misconception about fishing on or around redds. I have seen studies conducted by DFG on the Sacramento River when the flows are drastically reduced, exposing new redds. The redds were dug-up to find the eggs, which were all burried ~2ft deep. At this depth there would be no damage done to the embryos from a misplaced boot. These studies were conducted on salmon redds, but I'm sure steelhead dig their redds just as deep, but in different sized gravels. In either case I wouldn't walk on redds out of respect for the offspring. Hopefully this data clarifies any questions on the subject

[Fats]

I'll ask again, does anybody know (approx.) how long the redds stay polished up on the American River? The reason I ask is that I've always gone by the rule of thumb to stay off the "bright" gravel and try to walk through the darker stuff. If the redds are turning dark in a week after Momma has left... I'm really going to have to be more careful!

It's a problem for sure but when you are fishing for fish that are on a spawning run, you will end up damaging the fishery in some aspect no matter how careful you are. I guess the part that we have to be concerned about is that we leave as small of a "dent" as we can.

[aaron]

Pretty sad. Last year while on the bike trail I saw a couple fly flingers in a well known spawning area. One was up high spotting for the one fishing. Pretty disgusting.

[590Mike]

The area in the pic at Sailor bar (fishermen standing) usually have very few redds.There is mostly larger rock and cobble. Most of the beds are above the riffle about 50 yards as that's where the better water is. There are very few beds in that riffle. Most of the guys out there are very aware of the redds and where they walk.I have fished that area and can tell you its a bitch wading.

Last year most of the bead lining was in the smooth water,guys with flyrods would cast above a fish and try to bead/hook them in the side of the mouth.

The steelhead fishing was clearly better when the Upper American was closed till April 1st.
Now everyone knows where to fish... nice going

[mr. 3 wt.]

Mike, you are correct for the most part, but I have seen many steelhead trying to spawn in the riffles. These snaggers don't seem to have any problem rippin them right off there redd. Looks like the guy in the boat is no more ethical.

[590Mike]

Yep you know the ones. There are a few slots in that riffle and the snaggers are usually above and below. When the water was higher the island above Sunrise bridge was even worse. That's where I got into it with two of those A@#%les.

[wjorg]

just stay the hell out of the redds. Stay away.

Nice job. Take closer pictures next time, print a flyer with each guys face on it lifesize, and post the flyers in the parking lot.

Public shame works wonders.

[Dustin Revel]

if only there were more cars getting broken into on the american... maybe it'd keep people away from the redds

[BigOkieWhiteBoy916]

if only there were more cars getting broken into on the american

That is the last thing we need.

[huntindog]

OK I have to chime in here, I know I am going to draw some heat for this but here it goes....I have worked for/with some really good fisheries guys in this state I am no longer in that line of work but I keep my foot in the door, I have even done some work studying salmon redds, you really have to work hard to hurt one of those things. I am also good friends with a couple big time fisheries guys and asked them about this yesterday..their opinion was exactly what I thought it would be...you pretty much have to get in there and make a huge effort to cause damage...if you are carefully wading around the areas you are not doing damage. just my 2 cents

[Kurt P]

This is the first season I have ever wade fished rivers that are anandroumous?...anadromous?...androgynous?...anero genous?...applesaucerous?...(rivers that run unobstructed to the ocean). I imagine as the years pass I will learn where the redds usually are in the rivers I fish, but for now, I often find mysef unknowingly wading to within sight of the redds. I either back off or detour around (upstream, if possible) the bright gravel patches, but worry that I may be treading on older redds that aren't as bright. I would like to reiterate Fats' question; will a redd remain easy to see (algae not re-covering the rocks) until after the eggs hatch and alevin leave? How wide a berth do others give these bright patches?
Thanks,
Kurt

[Randy B]

Additional signage would really help educate those willing to be educated, but also more explicit information on the signs would also help educate fisher-people (i.e. picture of a redd, date ranges in which eggs/alevin are most likely to be present in the redds, etc).

[OceanSunfish]

OK I have to chime in here, I know I am going to draw some heat for this but here it goes....I have worked for/with some really good fisheries guys in this state I am no longer in that line of work but I keep my foot in the door, I have even done some work studying salmon redds, you really have to work hard to hurt one of those things. I am also good friends with a couple big time fisheries guys and asked them about this yesterday..their opinion was exactly what I thought it would be...you pretty much have to get in there and make a huge effort to cause damage...if you are carefully wading around the areas you are not doing damage. just my 2 cents

There is some merit to what you say above. I'm not a biologist by any means, but I do know that BEARS are usually a lot bigger then the average fisherman and they seem to have run around redds quite a bit during our planet's natural history. You think through evolution salmon learned to build redds to withstand bear prints <grin>. (I understand that bears don't do the "san juan shuffle" though)

IMO, there is a fine line with regards to our urban rivers and purism. I'd rather see people out fishing, supporting our local fly shops, and being educated over the years about conservationism for ALL fish and waterways instead of closing the river to access/eliminate more fishing opportunities, just to preserve a few redds. Keep in mind that this is an URBAN water/fishery convenient to many to start, pratice, hone, and become accomplished/product consuming anglers.

BTW, that big old ugly cement wall just upriver of the man made spawning areas sealed the deal a long time ago, so why not leave the 'spawning' to the hatchery folks and just let people fish, which by the way, is an opportunity that is doing a pretty good disappearing act as well.

I'm not clear as to what is right or wrong here, just providing another viewpoint for the sake of discussion.

[Black Cloud]

I'm glad to see this turn into a healthy discussion as to what to do. This is the first year that I've seen signs about the redds, they were placed by fish and game and they do say please avoid stepping on or disturbing redds during spawning and incubation season. I don't think they were talking about the bears.

James

[shawn kempkes]

last winter flyfish america in the annual steelhead issue,published an article on steelhead fishing over reds. The author advocated sight fishing and targeting the males.
It sickens me that a flyfishing magazine would print that excrement. I will never pick up that magazine and I cancelled my subscription to Fly Rod and Reel . Frr publishes that magazine.

[Mike R]

I agree with you Shawn. Over and over I see people pulling fish off of redds, regardless if they are aware of it or not.

Do I want to see rivers closed to keep people off the redds? No.
Do I want to see rivers closed to keep people from pulling fish off redds? Yes.

It seems like there are two issues here that we need to address. If you see a redd, don't try to walk through it. Just make your way around it (A few feet is fine. They aren't big). If you see a fish in a redd, leave it alone. Real simple.

Mike

[sierrapac]

Though there is no actual scientific study that has shown that walking on redds has any impact on the population of Salmon & Steelhead (based on an interview with a DFG fisheries biologist)there is anectdotal evidence that during the years after the river was closed during the winter months, that the number of Steelhead halfpounders increased. Disruption of redds has very little impact on the total population as Steelhead and Salmon are dependent almost completely on hatchery production. Natural production is relatively insignificant as far as the total population is concerned. Where the distruption of redds may possibly have an impact is on what we call "Half Pounders". which in the American River are simply Steelhead smolts, which live in the river for around two years before going to salt water. Hatchery Steelhead are released in the delta so one could assume that "Half Pounders" found in the American have been naturally produced.

I don't think that there is enough evidence that wading in, on or around redds causes enough damage to the Salmon/Steelhead populations to warrant closing the river. I do think however, that the DFG or some other entity (how about Fly Clubs) should put up signs at Sunrise and Sailor Bar etc. (at the trails leading out of each parking lot) with a photo of what a red looks like, and ask fishermen to stay away from areas where redds exist. I think it would be a little embarassing to be seen poking around all those redds in the flat above the island at Sailor Bar if there is a sign present. I think that over a period of time it might have some effect.

[590Mike]

Sierrapac
Nicely put and a sane intelligent perspective I might add. I have been an advocate of closing spawning beds for years. But since they are open I fish around them and do not wade through them.

Its a good thing you posted as I was getting to e-mail my psychiatrist and probation office for a good pic to post since I have fished the Upper American.

[Fats]

This is the first season I have ever wade fished rivers that are anandroumous?...anadromous?...androgynous?...anero genous?...applesaucerous?...(rivers that run unobstructed to the ocean). I imagine as the years pass I will learn where the redds usually are in the rivers I fish, but for now, I often find mysef unknowingly wading to within sight of the redds. I either back off or detour around (upstream, if possible) the bright gravel patches, but worry that I may be treading on older redds that aren't as bright. I would like to reiterate Fats' question; will a redd remain easy to see (algae not re-covering the rocks) until after the eggs hatch and alevin leave? How wide a berth do others give these bright patches?
Thanks,
Kurt

It seems this question will not be answered... I know in some Rivers they stay bright for quite a while... Salmon Redds still being descernable during the spring run with the steelies spawning in the same areas. Other rivers... they darkened up really quickly.

I guess we will have to try to observe this for ourselves...

[mr. 3 wt.]

Bottom line, it doesn't help trampling in and around the redds. Maybe it doesn't hurt all but even a small percent is to much these days with dwindling runs. Education has to start somewhere. Right here right now is the perfect place. If it doesn't, these fools will be up on other more sensitive rivers trampling around.

[590Mike]

Fats
I was told" wade around and below if you can", but, you have to be looking out for the bed. They are easy to spot as they look " arranged". There is a side channnel you can sometimes see them from the bank, PM me. I won't post the directions here so drop me a line.

If we get any amount of snow this year, next year will be a non-issue as when the flows are normal that is some hairy wading.

[MarcP]

I would like to reiterate Fats' question; will a redd remain easy to see (algae not re-covering the rocks) until after the eggs hatch and alevin leave?

I believe that the answer to this question is quite variable from year to year and system to system. There are many different factors that can determine the epilithic biofilm/periphyton response following the bioturbation associated with redd construction including but possibly not limited to: limiting factor governing photosynthesis (light, Ph, N), grazing by benthic browsers, temp, and flow regimes. I would say just exercise respect/caution in areas where you have seen or do see redds (and what ever you do don't let Black Cloud get your pic :-({|= ;-) ).

MarcP

[mike N]

I have been fishing the middle streches of the A for over 30 years and my observation of redds are as follows. Evidence of redds can last for quite a while, but that is not to say that the redd is still 'clean'. Throughout the fall and winter on the A there are three types of fish making and loitering on the redds; salmon, steelhead, and suckers.

Salmon redds seem to be the largest and the clean gravel lasts roughly 1-3 weeks after the adult has vacated the area. The depression and bulge associated with the redd can last into the following spawing season in low ater years.

Steelhead redds seem to be the smallest. It is my understanding that steelhead will lay eggs in "batches", that is to say that they will produce multiple redds in not so relatively close proximity. Aslo it is my experience that steely redds are short lived with respect to clean gravel and the tell tale signs of their depression and or humps. Evidence of their presence seems to last a week or two at most after the adult vacates. It is not uncommon to see no evidence of a redd other than a small "puff" of sediment while the redd is being dug. Also the steelied don't seem to loiter on their redds. I have little experience with the upper river, so my observations my be skewed based on the small spawing populations in the areas that I am most familiar with.

Suckers tend to have redds similar in area with the salmon, however the depth of the redds seeem to be much shallower than the salmon's. They seem to remain evident for a similar ammount of time as the steely redds, about a week or two after the adults vacate.

That is the way I remember it, others may see things differently, but I hope it answers your questions just the same.

MN

[Kurt P]

Thanks, guys, for all your advice. Very helpful, and I think my wading will be more redd-friendly from now on.
Good fishing,
Kurt

[huntindog]

Where the distruption of redds may possibly have an impact is on what we call "Half Pounders". which in the American River are simply Steelhead smolts, which live in the river for around two years before going to salt water. Hatchery Steelhead are released in the delta so one could assume that "Half Pounders" found in the American have been naturally produced.

.
half pounders are juvenile steelhead that have gone to the ocean and come back after a one summer...they have not remained in the river the entire time.

[wjorg]

half pounders are not necessarily juvenile steelhead. they can be adults that have not left the continental shelf....

Ill tell you what ruins redds...the bastards with jet boats on the Sac who use their jet wash to stir up the eggs....and bounce roe or egg patters in the chum. You know who you are!!! You deserve to rot in hell.

We would fire high speed projectiles at the side of their boats that would make them think they were being shot at......

[huntindog]

half pounders are not necessarily juvenile steelhead. they can be adults that have not left the continental shelf....

......

according to Moyle...who basically has written the bible of fish biology, a half pounder is..." an immature fish that overwinter in fresh water after spending a summer in the ocean".....I think I will take his word for it

[Fats]

I believe that the answer to this question is quite variable from year to year and system to system. There are many different factors that can determine the epilithic biofilm/periphyton response following the bioturbation associated with redd construction including but possibly not limited to: limiting factor governing photosynthesis (light, Ph, N), grazing by benthic browsers, temp, and flow regimes. I would say just exercise respect/caution in areas where you have seen or do see redds (and what ever you do don't let Black Cloud get your pic :-({|= ;-) ).

MarcP

Spoken like a true aquatic ecologist... I haven't used those terms in over 20+ years! (although I understand exactly what you are saying... depends on the river and the conditions!) Still, you think rivers would show certain trends over time...

Thanks for the answer! It brought a smile to this tired man's face!

[sierrapac]

Though we call the smaller (non spawning) Rainbows that we find in the AR at various times of the year "Half Pounders" they really do not meet the definition. Huntin Dog is correct that "Half Pounders" by definition are sexually immature Steelhead that have spent a couple of years in the ocean or estuaries before returning to the river. The AR does not have a specific run of these fish though many rivers in the Pacific Northwest do. The fish that we mistakenly have labeled "Half Pounders" in most cases have not been out of fresh water though some do wander into the SF Bay as attested by sea lice that we sometimes find on their bodies. What we call "Half Pounders" are simply smolts and they can get quite large prior to traveling to salt water. Some fishermen think that because some of these fish are chrome in appearance they have been to salt water, but that is also incorrect. Steelhead smolt take on the chrome patina while still in fresh water just prior to traveling to the ocean.

[Covelo]

Since Eel River steelhead were planted in the American following construction of the dams, and the Eel River definitely has a half pounder run, wouldn't it follow that the American would have a half pounder run? What evidence is there that half pounders do not exist in the American especially with the heavy genetic mixing with Eel River stocks?

[wjorg]

Damn, Ive been gone for a week and it looks like nobody has been fishing by the way these threads are going.

If you dont think wading on redds causes damage you are a fool. Hands down. Eggs get crushed and cemented in by sediment.

Bears might cause more damage than humans but less spoiled rivers with many bears are very romote. Last I checked there were no bears on the sacramento, russian, feather, or american, just waders wreaking havoc.

If I see you wading on the redds I will throw a rock at your head.

[jbird]

Damn, Ive been gone for a week and it looks like nobody has been fishing by the way these threads are going.

If you dont think wading on redds causes damage you are a fool. Hands down. Eggs get crushed and cemented in by sediment.

Bears might cause more damage than humans but less spoiled rivers with many bears are very romote. Last I checked there were no bears on the sacramento, russian, feather, or american, just waders wreaking havoc.

If I see you wading on the redds I will throw a rock at your head.

You are just the kind of guy that makes me seek solitude when I fish.

[wjorg]

Great.....Good luck with yourself J.

I usually try to educate before I have to hold back my feelings of throwing rocks.....but thats how passionate I am about conservation.

If someone was to step on the wombs of women carrying future redd crushers.........wouldnt that get some attention.......

[wjorg]

No, I try to make a point. If you come across me on the river or in person, I come across differently than how you interpret what I write. Sometimes it takes a prick to make a point. I dont see how anyone can argue that walking on redds does not harm them. I havent seen a scientific paper on the truth of the earth orbiting the sun but I believe it......

If you want to threaten me on the river, come get some. Maybe we'll be laughing together after the confrontation. Maybe not.......

[BigOkieWhiteBoy916]

Wow.

Take cover! Its about to get ugly. :D

[huntindog]

Damn, Ive been gone for a week and it looks like nobody has been fishing by the way these threads are going.

If you dont think wading on redds causes damage you are a fool. Hands down. Eggs get crushed and cemented in by sediment.

Bears might cause more damage than humans but less spoiled rivers with many bears are very romote. Last I checked there were no bears on the sacramento, russian, feather, or american, just waders wreaking havoc.

If I see you wading on the redds I will throw a rock at your head.

you better be able to run after throwing that rock because I always carry something more powerful than a rock

[huntindog]

the only thing that really has come out of this little pissing match is that there sure are alot of dime store biologists out there with some pretty off the wall opinions

[Bob Laskodi]

I dunno, HD, you seem to hang with a different group of fish biologists than I do! None of the fisheries guys I know of think wading in redds is a good idea. And why yes, since you asked, my son is a biologist with a degree in Fisheries Biology from UC Davis and worked for DR Peter Moyle a few times! So much for "dime store biologists"!!!!!! Extracted from the following URL:
http://www.psmfc.org/efh/Jan99-sec3-1.html

"Redd or Juvenile Fish Disturbance

Trampling of redds during fishing and recreational activities has a potential to cause high mortality of salmonids. Most information on redd disturbance is anecdotal. However, one study of angler wading caused high mortality (43%-96%) of alevins (very young salmon that remain in the gravel) with only one or two passes per day. The extent or cumulative effects of this type of disturbance are not known (Roberts and White 1992).

Studies in Alaska and New Zealand (Horton 1994, Sutherland and Ogle 1975) have found that in shallow water where boat use is high, and especially where channels are constricted, developing salmon eggs and alevins in the gravel can suffer high mortalities as a result of pressure changes caused by boat operations, which can result in removal of gravel or mechanical shock generated in the area under the mid-line of the boat. Studies done on the effects of jet sleds (power boats with jet units), drift boat, or kayak operation on the behavior and survival of free swimming juvenile salmon on the Rogue River have shown minimal effects, though behavioral responses are observed when vessels pass directly overhead (especially nonmotorized kayaks or driftboats) (Satterwaithe 1995). Studies along the Columbia River indicated that the wake (uprush of the bow wave) of large ships (but not smaller vessels, e.g., tugs) caused significant numbers of chinook juveniles to be killed from being washed-up and stranded on sand bars and mud flats. Stranding was not observed on the Skagit River from jet sled use (K. Bauersfeld, WDFW, 1998, pers. comm.), nor on the Rogue River from private motorboat and commercial tour boat use (Satterwaithe 1995).

Measures - Measures to minimize the effects of anglers/vessels on salmon EFH include angler/vessel restrictions and/or closures in key spawning areas during the time frame when spawning is occurring and while eggs and alevins may be present in the stream substrate, and promoting angler awareness of redd trampling. The states close important spawning reaches during spawning periods to protect spawning fish and their eggs."

[Black Cloud]

Not walking on redds is common sense not an off the wall opinion. Anyone that fishes for steelhead knows how special they are. If we don't take the time and effort to do what is right we can kiss them goodbye. Take alot of photos and you can show your kids and grandkids what they use to look like.

James

[huntindog]

Bob, like i said in my original post,,,If you are "CAREFULLY wading around" in the area you are not harming them. It is some of the other things on here, mainly regarding half pounders, that I found the most bizarre.

[jbird]

Great.....Good luck with yourself J.

I usually try to educate before I have to hold back my feelings of throwing rocks.....but thats how passionate I am about conservation.

If someone was to step on the wombs of women carrying future redd crushers.........wouldnt that get some attention.......


The problem with your all knowing stone throwing is, there are a lot of educated anglers that know how to avoid redds. How are you going to know when I am walking near and around redds and not in them. (huntindogs previous post express my thoughts on the stonethrowing crap).
Dont let your "PASSION" interfere with logic. Dont think that you are more passionate, more educated and above all, tougher than anyone else here as you hide behind the security of your PC monitor. You dont have a clue about the history and knowledge of 99% of the posters your talking to on this forum.

I wonder how many redds you walked on before you knew what to look for?

Finally, did I read your post right? Are you comparing unborn salmon to unborn human children??? I think you need to check the priorities that drive your passion buddy. Keep your feet on the ground.

[Fats]

My fishery biologist is bigger than yours!

:-P

[wjorg]

I dont want anybodys nursery disturbed, human or fish. In the womb or out. I don't devalue human life, and I try to celebrate and protect all life. I do not agree that human life is more or less important than any other in the universe.
If you meet me outside of the pc monitor, you might have a different opinion of me.
Education is better than violence. Awareness is better than ignorance.
I am learning to express my radical opinions with less of a negative context.
Good Day Sir.


The problem with your all knowing stone throwing is, there are a lot of educated anglers that know how to avoid redds. How are you going to know when I am walking near and around redds and not in them. (huntindogs previous post express my thoughts on the stonethrowing crap).
Dont let your "PASSION" interfere with logic. Dont think that you are more passionate, more educated and above all, tougher than anyone else here as you hide behind the security of your PC monitor. You dont have a clue about the history and knowledge of 99% of the posters your talking to on this forum.

I wonder how many redds you walked on before you knew what to look for?

Finally, did I read your post right? Are you comparing unborn salmon to unborn human children??? I think you need to check the priorities that drive your passion buddy. Keep your feet on the ground.