Single handers for swinging?

[aaron]

Sooo as the spey revolution takes over I was wondering how many of you still prefer a Single hander to swing with? Had the funny idea that as spey becomes the mainstream some people will rebel and go back to single handers. Just my random thought after dialing in a New sage Flight 7100 with an Airflow 40+. Crazy good combo.

[wjorg]

I love spey casting, and fishing with a 2 handed rod. However, there are particular places I prefer a single hand to swing. Maybe its because I cant cast like Simon Gawesworth but there are places where the quiet harmony of a few guys singlehand swinging is disrupted by the bright yellow 1/3 inch diameter cord somebody shows up with and puts a flogging to the water.......

Sure there are plenty of casters who can slap the water with just about anything, but what I am saying is sometimes the spey rod just isnt appropriate to the water/situation........use it as a tool, not a crutch. Dont get me wrong, a man/woman can fish with whatever they want....but thats my two cents.

On the other hand, I had a real good time putting a tell-tale indicator on a skagit setup on some nice orvis spey rod and picking off two steelhead under a ledge on the other side of the river(120 ft), with sweet stack mends.... I couldnt do that singlehanded.......

But is it a revolution or a fad......dont learn guitar.....learn the bass....

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I have over 40 years of memories with the old single handed fly rods but I am excited about getting more fish on a two hander.

[bigtj]

I caught thousands of pacific salmon on the swing in Alaksa before I started using a 2-hander. It was a blast. Swinging floating lines on cane rods is something I'll try to do once I build my first 7/8 cane rod, that would be a blast on the Trinity.

In a lot of places you don't need a 2-hander, lower Klamath comes to mind, and having a lighter single hander is a lot of fun.

[huntindog]

I almost always use traditional steelhead methods, though I sometimes switch to indicator type fishing if it is slow...and I always use a 9 or 9 1/2 foot single hander. The spey thing has never even remotely interested me.

[Fats]

I've been part of that line up at Cassini Ranch on the Russian... it's one of the reasons I don't really like fishing the Russian anymore. I spent enough time fighting crowds during Salmon and Steelhead season in Michigan. I'll trade the best slots in a river for less crowded "marginal" water any day of the week... but I'm digressing from the purpose of the post.

I've done just about all my steelhead and salmon fishing with Single handed rods. I'm a newbie to the two handed thing so right now... it's my focus. I doubt I'll ever walk away from the single handed rods however... there is simple joy to casting any fly rod!

[Mike R]

As of a few years ago, a spey rod was 14' and a single hand was 9 maybe 10'. Now, the line between a single and a double is getting pretty blurred. With the rise of the switch rod (it's not called a switch rod for nuthin'), there really isn't a line. Now you have single rods that are 11' and switch spey rods that are 10'6". You can spey cast or OH a double handed rod. You can OH or spey cast a single hand (A few of us were doing this before we knew what spey casting was. It was a great way to make long casts with big "cator rigs on the Valley rivers). So, to me, it seems like it is getting harder and harder to delineate one technique from the other.

As to the knuckleheads walking into the line-ups with the big rods, there are other uses for those ski ropes. ("Do you think the 600gr Skagit could hold him to the tree? Or should I go with a 650?")

See ya, Mike

[jbird]

Tho i own a couple switchrods, I prefer a single hand. I much prefer the feeling of a good fish on a light one hander. I also dont like the "skirope" aspect of speyfishing.
Casting doesnt really excite me, I am more concered about presenting my fly to the fish and inticing a strike. I think many guys who have become "speyfools" have become preoccupied with casting mechanics and have somewhat forgotten the simple methods of "problem solving fishing" and actually catching fish.
There was a thread on another forum that asked "if there was no fish in a particular stream, would you still fish it?". I was really amazed to see how many people would. So many flyfisherman are so brainwashed by the mechanics of this sport, they forget about the fish. In my observation, the spey movement really represents this mentality.

Obviously, there is a small percentage that has put it all together and are actually using spey gear as an effective fishing tool. Everyone else is just casting and lucking into a fish here and there.

[trinity]

I like swinging a spey rod for a lot of different reasons, but mostly because it is fun as well as advantageous on most of the rivers I like to fish. If I was fishing a smaller stream, I wouldn't do it, no need. I think a spey rod is really fun, fun bombing casts, great for controlling lots of line on the water, effortless power, etc. Sure it can be tough to learn, and you can look like a dummy, but that is just the learning curve. I've seen quite a few guys look like idiots fishing other ways too. Also, having good etiquette when you are a beginner is most important, so that you don't disrupt others, just the same as any other method. Guys with bad etequette are what is usually an issue with me, not style of fishing.

[Rick J]

I love two handers and switches. Maybe 8 years ago three of us headed up to BC to fish the Bulkley and Skeena - we were about the only ones I saw using single handers. Up to then I never thought I would get interested in them but I was wrong.

It was just a whole new ball game and challenge and I love pushing myself when it comes to fishing (yard work and honey do stuff - not so much!!). I really enjoy the casting much more than with a single handed rod on a river and the control I have with the longer sticks is significant - you can do alot with a 2-hander you can't do with a single hander.

But as others have stated - there is a place for each and I certainly would not walk into a line up - it sucks enough when everyone in a line up is using shooting heads and someone comes in with a floater!!

[shawn kempkes]

hey Carl

I double dog dare you to go up to Frank Bertainia the next time he brings his spey rod out to the river and fishes in the line up And tell him he is an inconsiderate jerk. Lets see how long you live. Lol


As far as the original subject of this post. I use a single hander on the smaller streams around here a spey rod can be overkill when the river is only fifty feet wide.

[Bruce Slightom]

When I was guiding the first guys that showed up with two handed rods I did not think much of the rods. As more people became interested in the two handers I went and learned a little about them, enough so that I could at least help a beginner. That kind of started it for me.

There for a few years I did not fly fish for winter fish. Using a single handed rod, heavy lines and big flies just killed my shoulder. When I started using the two handed rods it got me back into winter fishing. I can fish all day and still lift my are at the end of the day.

[wjorg]

You would be surprised what it takes to fish in a lineup.....grow a pair and try it out sometime. I was one of those, "I only want to fish by myself in the wilderness types." It can be hard to stay "on the fish," with that attitude. At least when you live far from the good holes.



I have a buddy thats been doing some pretty amazing recon trips these days....and catching big fish...

[Rick J]

Like Bruce, spey rods have really opened up winter fishing for me and for those streams that are 50 feet across - that is where switch rods shine!!!!

The newer spey lines coming out (skagits and short skagits) make presenting big flies on fast sinking tips a breeze - something you would really have to struggle with using conventional single handed gear. Of course the new short skagits now work pretty well on conventional single handed rods also

[aaron]

Carl, never fished the Russian, but from what I have gathered it is slower lines, smaller flies and slower water. Elsewhere it is big tips, flies, and faster runs. Switches and speys make airing out all that hardware easier as well as mending and controlling the speed of the fly.

I think people are a little confused as I never specified fishing in a lineup or general step cast mend.

Hope that helps.

[Rick J]

Carl,
Switch rods can be as short as 10.5 feet. The skagit lines can be under 30 feet including tips. These systems are not ideal for tide water but are great for pocket water and deep runs and slots. I am often using very large weighted flies 3' to 5" long. You can be against a bank with overhanging trees and I would venture you would have a difficult time presenting a full sinking shooting head system under these conditions. I am not saying I would use this system under all scenarios and in tide water or open conditions, a shooting head can be used effectively. But I bet I will use alot less effort throwing a weighted 5" fly on my switch rod than you will with your shooting head system on a 9 foot rod

[Darian]

Since I own/use a switch rod on occasion, I see some value in their use. As the name implies, they can be used as a single hander (and I do that....). So, a switch rod with the appropriate line can fit easily into a line-up and not interfere with anyone else. :cool:

Regardless, I've experienced people trying to use a true spey rod in a line-up (standing within 6' to 8' of me) while Shad fishing and flailing their line around so that it crossed in front of me close enough to make me quit until they left. It's not just one time, either. :mad: So, maybe the real problem is the inconsiderate or amateurish types that step into a line-up. They're probably inconsiderate regardless of the equipment used. IMHO, there isn't really a place in a line-up of guys using single handers for a spey caster.... :| Aaaannnd, it does seem that spey lines are all about the diameter of a ships hauser.... ;)

Altho I agree that the effort of casting a large, heavily weighted fly on a spey rod will be less than that of a single handed rod, I can't recall the last time I cast a 5", heavily weighted fly while fishing for Salmon/Steelhead. I can say that I've spent hours (entire days) with single handers, casting similar size and weighted flies for Stripers and a bunch of different saltwater species (either from shore, bass boats and/or panga's) and can't say that I ever worried about how tired I was going to get. Maybe as I age, that'll change. For now, a switch rod is as far as I'm going....:cool:

[Rick J]

Darian,
Although I don't use those big flies on the Klamath and Trinity, I sure use them on the Eel and other north coast and Coastal Oregon rivers - you can't effectively fish them with conventional fly gear but with a skagit system - no problem. Bruce and I go up each year to fish with Scott O out of Tillamook and we rarely use anything smaller than 3 inches

Here are a couple of photos of large flies
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/mole4.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/DSCN0003-1.jpg

And here is a clip of Bruce using his switch rod on a small coastal river

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/th_RedwoodCreek-01-25-09005.jpg (http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/?action=view&current=RedwoodCreek-01-25-09005.flv)

[Rick J]

Darian,
A couple of other comments on two handed vs single handed. You indicate that you throw big stuff all day with a single hander but it sounds like most of that is not on moving water. From a boat, it is much easier to cast the big stuff with a overhead cast.

But for steelhead on moving water, using spey casts is much easier as well as quicker than trying to overhead cast big flies and heavy tips especially when you may be wading waste deep.

While you can spey cast with a single handed rod, this is much more tiring than using either a switch or a 2-handed rod. Switches are great for tight quarters but on bigger water, nothing beats a two hander for giving you not only ease of casting but the best possible control once you have made the cast

[wjorg]

Rick,
Thanks for sharing! Without in any way trying to be negative....

BC guide have told me they see higher incidences of getting the fish behind the head with the long stinger hook...way back from the head of the fly. Something about the steelhead attacking the head of the fly and being stung by the trailer so far back.

Have you experienced this?

[Rick J]

I have not fouled a steelhead using these big flies but you raise a good point - I will ask Scott when I see him this spring.

I hope to make it over this Sat when Mike McCune is giving a demonstration on skagit casting - might be worth asking him the same question?

[Darian]

Rick,.... Meaning no disrespect and not wanting to belabor the point.... I'm still not sure I agree. The water I've been fishing from a Panga is around Isla Cerralvo (La Ventana area). During the course of tidal changes there, a current sets up and the surface of the water looks a lot like a river (even when the wind doesn't blow). IMHO, balancing in the bow of a panga on a hot day with a 2' - 3' swell running (during a breeze I might add) while trying to cast is at least as difficult as casting while wading in a river (....from my own experience with both). Each has it's own problems but I don't think either one is any more tiring than the other.... :cool: Casting out of a bass boat in the delta or the american just doesn't make me tired. ;) Like I said; that may change as I grow older.... :rolleyes:

Cool flies. I guess that's what's necessary to catch 'em in the big water. Almost the size of a plug (Wee Warts :question: ). When on the coast, I'm used to classic Salmon/Steelhead patterns.... Something between sizes 8 thru 4. :nod:

[Rick J]

Darian,

None taken. If you are casting flies like you describe (size 4) then you can pretty easily use a single handed rod (but it is easier with a 2-hander!). And in tight quarters, spey casts are a must to effectively cover the water - again easier with a switch or a 2-hander.

I still say if you are using big flies as I describe, there is no way someone could effectively and easily fish these all day with a single handed rod without beating yourself up especially if you do not have back casting room. But they are certainly not for everyone or for every type of water.

[tom2cast]

Rick,
one can incorporate the spey techniques with the single handed rod. I use them with my 9 1/2 9wt single hander quite a lot. The Perry Poke, Snap T, Snake Roll, and Roll Cast can easily be performed with a single handed rod with a little practice. I'm rarely in the air with the false cast on the 9wt. I bring the line in for a quick roll cast to the surface and then shoot the line. A lot of my friends have switch rods, but I've stayed true to the single-handed rod and can cast it all day with #4-#2 weighted flies.
-tom

[Rick J]

Tom,
But I bet you would struggle casting the big tube flies and string leeches I show which can be very deadly on steelhead. No question you can spey cast with a single hander - it is just far easier and less work with a switch.

If you are in the Sacramento area this weekend stop down and watch Mike McCune with the short skagits on Saturday - it is an eye opener

[Darian]

Rick,.... Since you're also an experienced saltwater guy, I know you've seen saltwater flies for billfish and large Roosters that can be as long as 8" to 10" and very bulky (read difficult to cast). Many have trailer hooks, as well. :eek: I'm sure the flies you use are quite heavy but not as large as those. Altho Clousers, Whistlers and some bottom bouncers are.... ;)

I have to acknowledge that you know a h__l of a lot more about spey casting than I. :nod: So, I guess what we can take from this discussion is that each type rod has its place and time in which it is the best tool for the job. :cool:

My example of casting out of a panga in rough saltwater is one instance where a spey rod would not be the best choice, regardless of whether it's easier to cast or not. Why :question: Because, aside from the obvious problems of two casters and a captain in a 22' boat, you couldn't bring a fish in to land it easily (not saying it can't be done....). But, it's tough enough to do that with a 9 footer. ;)

[tom2cast]

Rick,
saw your tube leeches and I wouldn't mind trying to cast one with my single handed rod. I'll see if I could take a video of the cast.
I can forward you my address if you wish.

I was at the Sandy River Spey Clave a few years ago when Simon Gawesworth gave the class, he showed us a few techniques for casting the long heavy weighted leeches.
-tom


Tom,
But I bet you would struggle casting the big tube flies and string leeches I show which can be very deadly on steelhead. No question you can spey cast with a single hander - it is just far easier and less work with a switch.

If you are in the Sacramento area this weekend stop down and watch Mike McCune with the short skagits on Saturday - it is an eye opener

[Rick J]

Darian and Tom,
The original thread relates to using a single hander vs two hander when swinging for steelhead so I agree with you Darian - No question, I would not use a switch or even a very long rod when fishing in the salt especially from a boat. It can be a struggle to keep upright in a boat in rolling waves and I agree can be as tiring as wading - but the actual casting is easier standing in the boat. I do often use a spey type cast to get things going from the bow - say a snake roll or snap c to get the line close then go into a single or at most two overhead casts. But it is easier to actually lift the line off the water when you are a few feet above it in a boat than when you are wading waste deep. So I now rarely cast overhead when I am steelhead fishing even when there is backcast room. It is more effort and more time consuming than using spey casts

So back to the original post of what to use when swinging. The new short skagit lines have really helped spey casting with shorter rods - either switches or single handers. The switches I have are really just single handers that I have converted to switches (3 old Fisher rods - a 10' 7wt; 10' 8 wt and a 10.5' 8/9 wt). These were my go to rods when fishing the N Umpqua before I saw the light and started playing with two handers. I mostly use T-14 now for tips and if using the big flies, having a heavier line really helps turn things over. I can still cast these rods single handed using spey casts but it requires far less effort to use them with two hands - it requires very little energy and a very short casting stroke to fire off the next cast. I know you can cast the big flies with a single hander but it is easier and less effort when using a heavier skagit line rather than a typical WF single handed line, and these lines are easier to cast with two hands.

Nice thread!!

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... Guess I drifted off point a bit. Having a senior moment/day or two.... :rolleyes: Did I mention I have and use a Switch rod.... I've swung flies all my adult life on a single hander but have to concede that when swinging a fly on the switch rod, I enjoy it more. So, as Carl says, "use the proper tool for the job." :cool:

[590Mike]

In talking with a spey guy, his take was spey casters get more drifts per day as the "set-up" took 4-6 seconds and a single hander could take an average of 20 seconds due to the amount of backcasts. With that said I'm with Carl on the fighting and landing a fish, especially landing because most of the time I see long rodders dragging the fish to the bank and that damages scales. I don't want to age anyone, but, as a kid I remember Lee Wulff fishing for Atlantic Salmon with a 6' rod. It seems like it was Kurt Gowdys show outdoor show, anyone remember? And yes it was a color tv...I think

[Darian]

Mike,.... What does "set-up" mean :question:

I've never actually timed my cast but it might be possible to take 20 seconds to roll a head up to the surface, make a single (overhead) back cast and shoot out the head.... :confused: I'm not familiar with all of the spey casts but I've watched guys spey casting at Watt Avenue and couldn't see where their procedure to cast took less time.... :-|

Also, seems to me that the number of "drifts per day" could only be determined by measuring the amount of time required to cast, drift, retrieve and begin again. If true, why wouldn't it take longer to complete a cast, drift and retrieve using spey techniques (due to the length of line cast/drifted/retrieved) than a single hander, overhead cast.... :confused:

[Rick J]

The rod is rarely the limiting factor in how much pressure you can apply on a fish but rather your terminal tackle - ie tippet strength. I would think that one can normally apply pressure that would break the tippet. so not sure I buy the fact that one can fight a fish more effectively with a short rod though a short stiff rod can apply more lifting power so maybe in deeper water situations (I never use a spey rod when fishing salmon from my pram).

I agree it can be more difficult to land a fish with a long rod but under most conditions it can been done without too much problem. These issues go away with a switch rod that is close to or the same length as a single handed rod. It may be a bit longer to accommodate the back grip but this does not change the fulcrum length of the rod

Darian - regarding the set up discussion, a couple of points - if you are casting in still water situations (no current) then when you retrieve, I agree it is a simple procedure to roll cast and make one false cast with a shooting head. But if you are swinging and the fly is downstream, I would not expect you will normally roll cast up and make one false cast - you need to make a couple so that you are now aiming your cast across stream. Spey casts reposition the line with a single motion (or at most 2) thus setting up to fire a cast out very quickly.

Also, it is not just how many casts you make in a day but how long your fly is in the water. If you are casting further with a spey rod, it is very possible you will make fewer casts but still have your fly in the water longer than if you have to make 2 or 3 false casts between casting.

[Rick J]

Tom,
Using spey casts single handed will be more tiring over a full day of casting than if you are using two hands. The ability to use a fulcrum of the two hands will allow you to use a shorter easier more compact stroke that if you have to do the lift and subsequent motions with one hand. Using two hands, I can keep the cast very compact with the hands never leaving a small box window that would go from belt to shoulder and no wider than shoulder to shoulder. I could not keep such a compact casting stroke using one hand. Also it is more difficult to lift the line off the water with the shorter rod likely causing you to have to lift a bit higher to reduce line stick.

No question a single handed rod can be very effective - I used one for many years for steelhead but I have found it much easier on this "elderly body" once I went to 2-handed rods and switches over a full day of casting so I know it has to be easier and less tiring.

[590Mike]

Hey Darian
Yea, give it a try you really have to hustle. We worked off a Sage Z-axis 796 with a 250 gr. casting the first thrity feet and shooting about twenty add a few feet for the mend. by the time the drift is through and its time to strip in and overhead one or two false casts and shoot, the spey guy is already into the drift. I didn't think so at first but watching out of the corner of my eye I notice how many more and longer drifts he was getting. I'm sticking with my single-hander though.

[Rick J]

Carl,
I am not talking about tuna - the original post is about swinging for steelhead (I normally don't use 100# tippet for them!! I just can't get the tippet through the eye of the hook!) and it was a general statement and I followed it up with a statement about having more lifting power with a short stiff rod - but that doesn't normally come into play much with steelhead - I also would not use a 2 wt rod to fish for tuna. But if you point a rod right at a fish and pull, the rod becomes inmaterial so in that respect I could apply as much pressure to a 100 # tuna with a 2 wt as I could a 12 wt. Not to say I would point the rod right at the fish.

But I bet I could land a 20"+ rainbow on my 2 wt every bit as fast as you could with a 6 wt. as in this case it is likely tippet dependent. I also bet I could land a steelhead with my 2-hander every bit as fast as you could with a 9' rod. The fish may have more advantage with a long rod but if you fight it properly, you can land them very quickly!

[tom2cast]

Enjoyed reading the thread on spey.
I found the link to our 2006 Alaska Arolik River adventure, We had the privilege of fishing from 8:00am till 1:30am since it doesn’t get dark until 2, and we did this for 9 days straight unsupported, with of course a few breaks in-between and 6 hours of sleep each night. I would have to say, that’s fishing “all day” throwing #2 weighted articulated bunny leeches at the King Salmon and #4 weighed leeches at the trophy leopard bows. We also caught the grayling, dolly varden, char, and silver salmon…20+ fish days, everyday. We enjoyed the trip so much we went back in ’07 and booked it again this July for ’09. BTW: big stiff rods will turn the heads of the 30+ pound Kings in the river which is a must, along with a good drag system. Techniques I’ve used for the steelhead as well.
Either one of these should pull the link up.
Enjoy - Tom
http://photoshow.comcast.net/watch/G...fdf3783712273c
http://photoshow.comcast.net/watch/GN2QM8Mc




Tom,
Using spey casts single handed will be more tiring over a full day of casting than if you are using two hands. The ability to use a fulcrum of the two hands will allow you to use a shorter easier more compact stroke that if you have to do the lift and subsequent motions with one hand. Using two hands, I can keep the cast very compact with the hands never leaving a small box window that would go from belt to shoulder and no wider than shoulder to shoulder. I could not keep such a compact casting stroke using one hand. Also it is more difficult to lift the line off the water with the shorter rod likely causing you to have to lift a bit higher to reduce line stick.

No question a single handed rod can be very effective - I used one for many years for steelhead but I have found it much easier on this "elderly body" once I went to 2-handed rods and switches over a full day of casting so I know it has to be easier and less tiring.

[Rick J]

Carl,
Actually my words were "rarely" not a limiting factor. You are the one that took it to extremes by comparing a 2 wt to a 12 wt. One will obviously use the proper rod weight for the species being targeted and if you are using the proper rod, then it will normally not be the limiting factor in how much pressure you can apply.

I am all for anyone using whatever system they want. I am just stating that a switch/2-handed rod is often easier to use all day and for that matter often more effective when covering water swinging flies. Not to say it can't be done with a single hander. As I said previously, I used a single hander for years and still do on occasion but as I get older, I have found using spey techniques with the new line systems on switch and 2-handed rods has gone along way to allowing me to fish for extended periods and not wear myself out

[Rick J]

Carl,
Nope - don't play golf - I have enough vices without taking on another sport!! And yes I am up for betting but with qualifications. As I have said before my comments about the rod not being limiting needs be qualified to what is legitimate. Where I use my 2 wt is on spring creeks and I am normally using tippets of 7x to 5x. With this set up, I know I can land a 20" trout as fast as someone who is using a heavier rod.

I would not use a 2 wt rod for fishing trout on say the lower Sacramento. But I would submit that I could land a 20" trout on the Sacramento using a switch or even a light 2-hander every bit as quickly as someone using a 9' rod.

I assume not much is going on on the Russian right now? I live in Lake Co but work in SR and would like to get out on the Russian sometime - I may pack my 2-hander just to show that many of us spey guys really are idiots in lineups but would also bring my single hander with shooting heads!!

[Rick J]

Hi Carl - one more round. I never disagreed that with a shorter, stiffer rod you can apply more pressure. I did say that normally it is the terminal tackle and not the rod that governs how much pressure you can apply.

Let me turn the tables on you. We both go fishing for 20" trout. You use your12 wt with 7x tippet and I will use my 2 wt with 7x tippet. Who will land the fish first?

Maybe a more reasonable comparison is the guy using ultralight tackle and a noodle rod. Put the same terminal tackle on a short stiff 9 wt. Which rod is the more effective fish fighting tool? The noodle rod because the guy can better apply maximum pressure throughout the fight due to the shock absorbing characteristcs of the noodle rod.

Now back to fighting a steelhead on a 14' spey rod vs a 9' single handed rod. Say I have both equipped with 10# maxima tippet. A fish grabs and screams out into the river. At this point all bets are off - I am just trying to get my heart rate under control and feather my rim control as best I can. But say I am lucky enough to get him in close so I can now put pressure on him. I am fighting him off the butt of the rod with my hand clamped on my rim control and with either rod, I can apply pressure up to the breaking strength of the tippet and I am pretty sure I can land that fish as quickly on either rod.

If you put 30# on a boat rod and 30 # on a 14' spey - no question, you will land that fish much quicker on the boat rod. But assuming typical fly gear you might use for steelhead, the length of rod should not matter in how fast you can land the fish

[mr. 3 wt.]

It boils down to who's behind the wheel. I have seen newbies take 15 minutes to land a steely and a veteran 3 minutes. Virtually on the same tackle. Experience knowing the strength and how the fish react to being hooked, and the breaking point of the rod and tackle. It all plays into the final result. With that being said, the guys you see on the river not wasting time and the fishes energy to land a fish are experienced anglers. The guys who take forever have a lot to learn. But what a better way to learn than to have one on the hook to begin with.

[mikel]

I'm certain I'm the least proficient and knowledgable angler to post on this subject. The question however was "what do you prefer?"

I have fished a spey rod 2 days on the N Umpqua with a guide. Took me about an hour to be able to handle the rod at all and improvement continued for the whole 2 days. I thought the casting action was very cool...almost hypnotic with the rythm of the cast, swing, pickup and cast....etc etc...Frankly, the casting (mho) was really an enjoyable thing.

I hooked 2 nice fish, landing 1...from the time I hooked up it felt like I could just overpower the fish....that with 12.5 feet of rod and a 3x tippet, unless the fish cut me off on the sharp rock, he didn't have a prayer...

Most of my steeheading now is on the Trinity/Klamath, though I've been to the Skeena/Kitimat and fished coastal Ca and Ore more than a few times and fished a lot for silvers on the Tsiu in Ak...and I like the feel of a fish on a single hander better...and that's what I go for...

just an uninformed 2 cents...-mike

[jbird]

I'm certain I'm the least proficient and knowledgable angler to post on this subject. The question however was "what do you prefer?"

I have fished a spey rod 2 days on the N Umpqua with a guide. Took me about an hour to be able to handle the rod at all and improvement continued for the whole 2 days. I thought the casting action was very cool...almost hypnotic with the rythm of the cast, swing, pickup and cast....etc etc...Frankly, the casting (mho) was really an enjoyable thing.

I hooked 2 nice fish, landing 1...from the time I hooked up it felt like I could just overpower the fish....that with 12.5 feet of rod and a 3x tippet, unless the fish cut me off on the sharp rock, he didn't have a prayer...

Most of my steeheading now is on the Trinity/Klamath, though I've been to the Skeena/Kitimat and fished coastal Ca and Ore more than a few times and fished a lot for silvers on the Tsiu in Ak...and I like the feel of a fish on a single hander better...and that's what I go for...

just an uninformed 2 cents...-mike

Good answer. I concur 100%

[Rick J]

So Carl, let's go back to the beginning: This is what I said:

The rod is rarely the limiting factor in how much pressure you can apply on a fish but rather your terminal tackle - ie tippet strength. I would think that one can normally apply pressure that would break the tippet. so not sure I buy the fact that one can fight a fish more effectively with a short rod

This was your response:

After you posted the above statement, you obviously didn't understand what I said, or perhaps I didn't explain it right. Let's say we both have 100 pound tippet. You have a 15 foot rod and I have a 5 foot rod, OK? Now we both are hooked into a tuna. Going on your theory we both can put the same pressure on that fish. I disagree with you 100%

You took what I said out of context and started talking about 100# tippet and targeting tuna on a 2 wt.

I never said you could not put more pressure on a fish with a short rod. I said it does not come into play when terminal tackle is the limiting factor which for steelhead in most cases it is. Sure you might be able to put more pressure on a fish with a shorter rod but if it exceeds the tippet strength it doesn't get you much!!! I am saying a short rod won't help you land a fish faster when you can apply the maximum pressure the tippet will bear with either rod.

[jbird]

Boy this thread went from interesting to,, well... not.

[Rick J]

JBird - you are right - sorry for the various rants - I will try to make this thread more interesting - I got some good video clips of Mike McCune casting this morning down at Watt and will try to post tomorrow - using skagit shorts on light 5 wt 12' spey rods and switch rods - it makes it look effortless which it is!! He now rarely uses anything heavier than the Sage 6126 z-axis even for winter steelhead up on the coastal Oregon rivers

[Ed Wahl]

Jay and Carl, thank you. This really had to stop.

Aaron, you are the master.

65 freakin posts on something that esoteric is really astounding.

You identified a group of people,(steelheaders), who are pretty wiggy to start with, and pitted them against a sub-group of wiggy steelheaders,( speycasters).

This thread took some truly weird twists and turns.

It was like a car wreck on the freeway, you just have to look as you go by.

I wonder how many other board members out there respect that kind of genious.

When I grow up I want to be just like you.

But better looking.

Ed

[aaron]

Ed, I try. I just started the thread after helping pops get a single hander dialed in that was easy to throw gobs of line with. After words I was kind of curious to what the spey to single hand ratio was.

[Rick J]

I apologize to everyone for ranting in this thread but thought I would post one more time and share some video clips of spey casting. Some folks here have stated that while they enjoy spey casting, they prefer fighting fish on a single hander. As short as 5 years ago, I bet the average 2-hander for steelheading was a 14' 8 or 9 wt and it took a considerable fish to make you know you had something worthwhile. But in the last 5 years there have been huge changes and there are more light speys out there and the newer switch rods (not much different than your single hander). What is maybe more important is the development of line systems that allow you to use these lighter rods and still throw heavy flies and sink tips and do it easily!!!

Most recently is the introduction of short skagit lines on light rods and Mike McCune, one of the premiere skagit casters and a developer of theses lines was kind enough yesterday to put on a demonstration at the Watt Bridge.

The typical skagit cast for river left, downstream wind is the snap T (or circle cast) demonstrated here:

URL=http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/?action=view&current=DSCN2743.flv]http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/th_DSCN2743.jpg[/URL]

Another good cast for this situation is the perry poke:

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/th_DSCN2740.jpg (http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/?action=view&current=DSCN2740.flv)

With an upstream wind, you want the set on your downstream shoulder - here is a truly easy cast that takes no effort at all -an off-shoulder vertical double spey that I saw for the first time yesterday

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/th_DSCN2738.jpg (http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/?action=view&current=DSCN2738.flv)

And finally and off shoulder perry poke

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/th_DSCN2747.jpg (http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a395/RickJ/?action=view&current=DSCN2747.flv)

Look how little effort is being expended with these casts and think of the possibilities - it makes it possible for someone approaching 60 to continue fishing under winter conditions all day for several days and not beat myself up!!

As my good friend Bruce Slightom pointed out, most of these guys doing this started out as single handed steelheaders but none have gone back to the single hander finding it much easier to use the 2-hand rods and they have pushed the limits so that now you can use a light 2-hander and not lose out on the fight of even smaller steelhead!!

[Craig Nielsen]

Aaron:
I have taken to using switch rods almost exclusively leaving the option to single hand or two hand cast whenever the mood moves me. If you haven't I'd recommend giving 'em a go. You may be pleasantly surprised. I've written a bit about their benefits in California Fly Fisher, and am doing some casting presentations at west coast shows this winter. You can check the articles out if you are interested. http://www.shastatrout.com/why-switch/ & http://www.shastatrout.com/switch-rod-techniques-and-tactics/ Let me know your thoughts.

[Fats]

Actually, the McCune Demo on the American has me thinking... I have a 10' 8wgt. I also have a 11 F shooting head that has the front taper chopped off it. I have some smaller home spun tips that will work in front of it. I'm thinking that I may have a set up that would approximate a skagit head for a smaller rod.

I'll have to try this out on a casting pond to see if it would work but if it does... I've added another options to my game!