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wjorg
01-07-2009, 12:14 PM
I have really started to see Simms products level of quality just drop off a cliff.

The level of customer service has improved maybe since 2003 but has also been ho-hum, sometimes downright terrible.

I can spare the group my specific issues, but wondering if anyone has noticed the same trend.

I have a friend who fishes pretty hard and fishes fairly often. Hes had the same pair of light brown waders for 10 years now. No leaks, no product failure. But I guess making a product that good will put you out of business. Can I say DeLorean....

I cant go more than two months max before some piece of seam tape is delaminating from a seam.........numerous other pieces disintegrating for no apparent abuse reason. I know of two industry people who have had waders leak right out of the box......

Darian
01-07-2009, 02:23 PM
I haven't any experience with Simms products or their services but I've owned and worn out all other types of waders. Almost every one has failed at the seams over time.... I'm not sure what makes one pair of the same brand of waders outlast another, either. :confused: I figure I'll just keep patching until the patches won't hold the waders together any longer and then get another pair.... ;-)

BTW, seems like I recall that DeLorean went out of business because he was caught smuggling dope in his vehicles.... :unibrow: I still see a couple of his autos on the road now and then, tho. :cool:

wjorg
01-07-2009, 03:09 PM
Seam leaks are a different issue. Ive seen brand new waders leak right out of the box(with fly shop employees!) but not experienced it myself.


Seam tape that covers the internal seams. Thats different. Seam tape separating from the seams within a month of purchase is ridiculous. Ive had it happen over and over now.

Furthermore, shoulder straps disintegrating withing two weeks of use....G4 Zipper welded seam delaminating within 3 months of use....wader belt holder separating from the velcro to attach it to the waders...and on and on....

These are unacceptable for $400 to $800 for these waders. Especially when you are told to pay for the repairs.

Delorean.....he was set up by the FBI. Undercovers sold him coke and convinced him he could make a bit of money that way. Since he was deeply in debt, he bit. They busted him. Some say the Big 3 set that up.....

Big 3, now begging for a handout, didnt feel they would have a secure business with good old fall-apart made in the USA crap competing against a car made out of Stainless Steel. Its too bad the windows didnt roll down or they would have had a winner....

Anyway........any of you experienced these types of issues with Simms waders or products?

wjorg
01-07-2009, 04:44 PM
...innocent of fraud and racketeering, acquitted on drug charges.

Fats
01-07-2009, 05:45 PM
I'm not going to comment on Delorians... although the concept of "sweating" meant the cars would corrode from the inside out. What do I know!

This thread is about Simms. I had a roller lace come out of a set of the G3 boots last year on the upper sac. A rivet broke... no big deal. A fly shop that wont be named offered to take care of it for me as I stopped off on the drive home. I told them "Thanks, but no" and let the shop that I purchased them from take care of it. The wanted to send the boots back to be repaired... I told them that at 4 months of age on the second usage... they needed to be replaced. It took a conversation but... they replaced them for me. That's all I can really ask for. Issues happen, it is how the company takes care of the problem that buys customer loyalty.

Darian
01-07-2009, 06:35 PM
Interesting that we declare a guy who purchased drugs from people he thought were distributors, attempted to smuggle them into the U.S. inside his product for sale to our citizens/kids as innocent due to entrapment provisions in our law.... Fact :?: Maybe.... Personally, after reading the account of DeLorean, I have no sympathy for the man. He made the choice regardless of who set him up. :nod:

Interestingly enough, he was a former exec in the auto industry. I guess it just wasn't enough to be wealthy.... :confused:

Dustin Revel
01-07-2009, 07:09 PM
Interesting that we declare a guy who purchased drugs from people he thought were distributors, attempted to smuggle them into the U.S. inside his product for sale to our citizens/kids as innocent due to entrapment provisions in our law.... Fact :?: Maybe.... Personally, after reading the account of DeLorean, I have no sympathy for the man. He made the choice regardless of who set him up. :nod:

Interestingly enough, he was a former exec in the auto industry. I guess it just wasn't enough to be wealthy.... :confused:

Delorean's drug issues have nothing to do with the principle of creating a good lasting product, which is what wjorg was commenting on.

Terry Thomas
01-07-2009, 08:31 PM
I have been fishing Simms waders for the last @20 years. In fact, I still have the first generation Gortex set that I purchased way "back in the day." You know, those waders still don't leak, however, they did shrink a bit around the middle. I can't blame that on Simms. As far as quality control, I still see the same care as I have throughout the years. Ordered up a pair of the bootfoots last Spring and would say they are the best waders that I have worn. I would give one warning, don't leave a protein bar in the pocket and hang them in the garage! I now will be checking into the repair department to see what it takes to have a pocket repaired...I've been "verminated!"
Terry

Don Powell
01-07-2009, 09:20 PM
Vigorously re-entering flyfishing in California in 1993 after I had sacrificed my favorite hobby growing up in WV for a career, I bought in to the Simms philosophy. I had 10 pairs of waders in 10 years, and as the price escalated each year, I realized this was a marginal product!
I switched to Cabelas Guide series, worked two pairs of them hard over the last SIX years and have no regrets... One of my guide friends convinced me to try Simms again, insisting they truly are the "best"... I have them, they are leakproof for 6 months and I really and truly want to be convinced that an "American made" product really can deliver!
My fear is that American entrepreneurialism truly is at the "heart" of planned obsolesence and recent experiences confirm this.
In summary, let me ask...would you rather pay $600.00 for a pair of waders that last one to two years or $219.00 for a pair of waders that last 3 years? It really doesn't take a mathematical genius to figure this one out.
Simms, our proud American product, live up to the HYPE! As the economy fails, realize inferior products are to blame. Lose the "get rich quick" mentality and produce a reliable dependable product...the riches will emerge if you have not irreparably damaged your reputation.

Signed,

Someone who can afford any quality product and is intelligent enough to dismiss "hype" campaigns and inferior products...

flygolf
01-07-2009, 10:34 PM
I was one of those people that had the old guide model which leaked right out of the box the first day. I was fishing the next day so I aqua sealed the leg that leaked and it fixed the problem except the next day the other leg leaked. I never took those waders back and still have them as a third string backup and every seam has aquaseal on them. I vowed not to buy another pair and broke that vow when Simms introduced the G3. They leaked within 6 months but I did return those and they first offered to send back and fix but after some talk agreed to send the flyshop a new pair and they gave me some off the rack. It's been 1 year (100 days on the water) and these, knock on wood, are still going. Don't know if this has anything to do with quality issues (but I think it does) I heard Simms pays thier employees by the garment.

jbird
01-08-2009, 12:15 PM
If your cabelas leak, send them in and theyll replace them. I had the Gold Medal Plus waders for about 5 years and abused them brutally. I thought "what the Hay" I called cabelas and told them my waders are a quilt work of aqua seal by now afetr 5 years of intermittent leak repair. I thought they were gonna tell me about some special offer on new waders in their next catalog.

Instead they told me to send them in for evaluation. After a couple days they called me to tell me they were gonna send me new waders. However, they were out of my size, so they upgraded me to the guide series, no charge.

I honestly thought I was gonna get laughed off the phone when they called me back with the "evaluation". I mean these waders were "rode hard"

Thats pretty darn good customer service

Jay

wjorg
01-08-2009, 05:59 PM
Now thats excellent customer service! I think a little too good. But Id take it.

Mike O
01-11-2009, 12:45 AM
nah...I prefer to spend $150 on a pair from LLbean, and never have to buy another. Great customer service there...if they fail, for any reason, to satisfy...they will be replaced.

stevie steelhead
01-12-2009, 09:22 AM
Most of us know that waders will eventually leak.
Quality control will always be an issue, and we all have had bad and leaky equipment.
So for me, as well as those of us who have found great companies, it becomes important how the flyfishing industry treats us when we complain or call about problems with our products.
I stand behind Patogonia products basically because of the way they handle problems with their products. Over the past 25 years, they have replaced or credited me $ whenever a problem with their products occurs, always without questions or hesitations. I guess that's why their equipment/merchandise cost more, but in the end probably not!

wjorg
01-12-2009, 12:41 PM
I had one Patagonia product that was replaced 12 times in 2.5 years. To their credit I haven't had those problems with Simms.

Again, this post was not about "leaky" waders. They all leak. But they are not supposed to leak right out of the box or start disintegrating in two months.

Rich Leonetti
01-17-2009, 11:07 PM
I know I had a pair of Hodgeman's for 4 years and they still haven't leaked. I decided last year that I was going to buy Simms. Needless to say I have about 13 days on the water since I got them and they are back at Simms because they leaked. They are however going to replace them under the warranty. I even asked if they could upgrade them from a medium to a large since I am fatter since I purchased them and they agreed. So Quality? Eh... don't know but they sure took care of me in my opinion.....

wjorg
01-18-2009, 10:58 AM
I sent my waders in 8 months ago to be repaired for warranty issues....ive been asked to pay for a new pair....I agreed, I still dont have a pair of waders..........Its been 8 months!

Fats
01-18-2009, 12:54 PM
I sent my waders in 8 months ago to be repaired for warranty issues....ive been asked to pay for a new pair....I agreed, I still dont have a pair of waders..........Its been 8 months!

That may explain why you are bitter toward Simms. You may want to try contacting the regional sales director or someone higher up to find out what is going on. Sounds like you should get an explanation at least...

:fish:

aaron
01-18-2009, 01:02 PM
My take on waders: All leak eventually, you're paying for comfort. Cheap waders on a warm day suck.

Wjorg, that's certainly not the norm and 8 months is hard to believe.

wjorg
01-18-2009, 01:59 PM
probably half my own fault, whatever, my own personal issue i should have kept so. it will be solved in the end. i have faith....just need more patience. sometimes i exaggerate(believe that?) maybe its only been 6?....

amoeba
01-20-2009, 08:19 PM
No:

I haven't noticed the trend in quality at all; I have lots of simms stuff, altho not the waders, and its all great.

What I have noticed is they spend alot of time fussing with new designs for products that are nearly perfect; and the result is sometimes less than the old design. Examples include:

-wierd color on jacket (orange - fish can see that, dude)
-smaller pockets on mesh vest (hey - next time you redesign, see if a large flybox fits)
-substituted 2-way stretch for what was 4-way stretch on pant fleeces (you think fly fisherman can't bend over?)
- heels smaller than the forefoot on G3 wading boots (poor balance)

-but there are some winners as well - the new guideboot of last year being one - I really like the high-top and flexibility (compared to the G3's - anything's better); my only gripe is some exposed stitching but a layer of aquaseal prior to the first use solves that potential issue - the #1 boot IMO.
-I like the jacket with that rubbery zipper thing. Is more watertight even though it doesn't look like it.

snakeater
01-21-2009, 06:25 AM
i recently had the opportunity to deal with simms on a set of waders- took over 2 weeks and a few emails and 1 phone call to get an answer- told me my waders were worn out- no way unless they are not all they are hyped to be- they were the G3 model- they gave me a discount of about 30% on a new set so i took it , one of the gravel guard hooks is backwards now on the new ones- quality control again- i have never had this kind of poor customer service treatment from either orvis or cabelas- next time discount or not i will but from one of them

caltagm
01-21-2009, 10:12 AM
I'm kinda surprised that, after all the hoopla on the board about rods and reels that are made in the USA, it hasn't been mentioned that Simms waders are made in Montana while Orvis are made in China and Cabelas are made in China/Taiwan (according to their respective Customer Service departments).

Is origin unimportant in waders? Or are you willing to endure a little extra wait/inconvenience to help support industry in MT?

snakeater
01-21-2009, 11:05 AM
point is we should not have to settle for 2nd best - that is the whole issue now with alot of american goods and why the overseas "junk" is taking over- decent quality, better price and way better customer service

caltagm
01-22-2009, 12:40 AM
Sure......

wjorg
01-22-2009, 10:06 PM
I am just glad that 1056 people have viewed this thread so far.

It will be 6 months in a few days after returning them for warranty repair.

I have had my shop calling simms for 6 days straight, 3x per day, about my waders....

SIMMS HAS YET TO RETURN THE CALL.

Customer DIService

mr. 3 wt.
01-23-2009, 10:10 AM
I am on my 4th pair and they all leaked after a season or so. But to be fair, I have also used lesser brands and they did not fair any better. It is easy enough to fix the leaks that have developed so I never even bother to send them back these days. Simms are more comfortable and seem to fit better than most. I am currently using the bootfoot option kind and am quite pleased with them. My feet stay considerably warmer and are more comfortable. You gotta be a little more careful when rockhopping though. One thing about the bootfoot, I got a set of boot driers from cabela's cause after a day of fishing, the boots seem a little damp from perspiration. The driers work awesome and is is so nice to slip into a nice warm dry pair of waders.

MarcP
01-28-2009, 06:57 PM
I have owned multiple pairs of G3's and I do believe the quality has decreased over the last two years. First off they are still great waders; however, as others have noted the quality of the taping and integrity of the seems has decreased. Also the new and supposedly improved G3's lack the 5 layer protection in the seat that they previously had. I've also put more and larger cuts into the material of my latest pair. If this trend in production continues I will be buying stock in aquaseal as I'm going through copious amounts.
MarcP

wjorg
02-02-2009, 06:09 PM
"buy stock in aquaseal" that is hilarious. I want to point out....if you put aquaseal on any seam, simms will void your warranty. Use ducttape for temporary repairs.

If you buy from LLBean they will replace your waders on the spot for any reason. Satisfaction issues alone will get you a new pair overnighted to the location you are fishing at, and it will be your obligation to get the old waders back so you dont get charged. Great plan. I used to work for REI and take it upon myself to be honest and eat it when the issue is my fault. But if its the fault of the manufacturer, they should be held accountable.

Sorry to knock it, but dont buy waders from a fly shop. Bad idea.

My problem is my giant feet only fit in custom pairs....cant do the LL Bean thing........

Tracy Chimenti
02-02-2009, 10:29 PM
I ran into a 50% off deal at Moutain hardware and bought the ones below the guide model. I thought is was a steal at the time and am really curious now as to how they're gonna perform. I bet the factory is freaked! You burn a flyfisherman once, that's one thing. When these things leak a second time it will take years to come back.

wjorg
02-11-2009, 10:40 AM
.....finally got my waders back. About 6-7 months.....

troutbm
03-11-2009, 02:12 PM
Wow lots of posts on this one. I have had only one problem with a simms product, The felt ripped off a boot after about 6 months of very hard use. The boots were replaced no questions asked and I had my new ones in less then 2 weeks and to top it off they no longer made the boots so they sent me a brand new pair of WAYYYYYYYYY better more expensive boots, I just had to pay 8 bucks shipping. If thats not customer service I do not know what is. As for simms waders, You can get a hell of alot more wader for what you will pay for a pair of simms. I beleive simms waders are only ok at best but there other products are great. Off topic question.....If this had happened and i took the boots to kienes would they have gave me a pair of loaner boots if i did not have any others to get by on ?

Darian
03-11-2009, 09:48 PM
Hmmmm.... :-k Lets think about the question. :-k Would there be an economical reason for a fly shop (not the manufacturer of the returned item) to stock extra, costly inventory so it can be loaned out, devalued by use and never sold.... :question: :question: IMHO, that seems to me to be taking customer service a bit too far.... :nod:

I could be convinced that a rental agreement for the temporary use of item(s) from inventory would be OK but I suspect that cost could be high since the item will probably never be sold and the shop must recover it's cost. :cool:

With the advent of no-fault, lifetime warranties, manufacturers have created the idea that shops should follow suit. IMHO, that's not realistic. With few exceptions, fly shops do not make guarantees or warrant products manufactured by others and sold through their stores. Most fly shops don't have the monetary resources to do that or they would probably be manufacturers.... ;)