Russian River Steelhead

[Dustin Revel]

I've always thought hatchery fish are food, and if they were there out of necesity for the survival of the fishery we would not be allowed to fish there.
my .02

[Darian]

They taste better than commercial, pen raised fish do, too. Barbequed on a Cedar plank with lillikoi Butter and chopped Macadamia nuts, MMM, MMM.... :unibrow:

[Mike R]

I haven't posted much but thought I'd chime in:

There is nothing wrong with killing hatchery fish. The idea that hatchery fish supplement wild fish in order to mitigate losses from habitat degradation doesn't really work. In Oregon and Washington, it is expected to kill hatchery fish. The hatchery fish don't really contribute anything to the river. Either thay make it back to the hatchery to make more pen raised half brains or they spawn naturally, which is bad...very bad.

I'm not saying "don't release hatchery fish", just don't be shy about throwing 'em in the smoker!!!

See ya, Mike

[Ryan Miller]

Mike, you have spoken like a true steelheader... Sometimes we lose sight of the big picture wherein hatchery fish do take away from the purity of a strain of fish.

Ryan

[lee s.]

I, for one, do intend to keep an occasional fish to eat where legal to do so, wild or hatchery. If I were to believe that I could benificially or detrimentally impact a fishery, especially a basically non-feeding fishery, with a stick and a string, I would claim myself to be lacking in the retention of certain anatomical cells of an upper extremity. Of course, with our lack of piscatorial skills, I am absolutely in NO way capable of impacting ANY fishery. :lol
To see the dirty water already waiting in the vineyards and the dark water already below Mirabel on Friday, with little or NO run-off, it is quite disheartening to realize the future of our anadromous fisheries in this river. Siltation from vineyards is merely the visual manifestation to a dolt such as myself, to the actual pollution (visual/silt and nonvisual/chemical) allowed by this industry. There was a picture last week of a "green" sustainable vineyard (whatever that means) in our local paper (the Press Democrat) showing a group of visitors rambling down a hill thru the vines.....ON BARE DIRT!
What does one think will happen with ANY run-off? I DO believe that for us (the fishers) to accept any blame for the demise of our fishery, it must be due to our nonvigilance and our acceptance of polluting practices and not our choice to legally harvest.
By allowing politicians to remain in office that accept these detrimental practices (often promoting them) we are also culpable of said practices. Of course this IS a hard one, as more people are concerned as to whether water comes out of their faucet than if a fish swims a creek. And we do have only ONE vote. :-(
....lee s.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I think it is OK to keep hatchery Steelhead.

It might even be a good thing to help keep the wild stain alive?

__________________________________________________ _______________________

I think it would be good/nice/wonderful if we took a few special Steelhead rivers that have good spawning habitat and make them an all wild fisheries that are single barbless hook, catch and release only. Just a few rivers that have wild fish and have spawning gravel?

I think the Smith River might be one of the only Steelhead rivers that does not have a dam on it? Funny (not really), you can still kill wild Steelhead on that river????

What other Steelhead rivers/tributaries have no dams?

If we have 90% of the Steelhead rivers that you can kill fish on then what's wrong with picking a few, 5% maybe, to have catch n release with all wild fish?

I had this idea about 30 years ago.......

I think we need hatchery fish in some of the rivers, but not all.....

[lee s.]

Sorry Carl,
I got off course. It is hard for me to visualize the Russian as a viable "wild steelhead" fishery.
I think your question has different consequences on different watersheds. In a watershed such as the Russian, where "wild" fish are so depleted, I think the water should be filled with hatchery fish. Any strays spawning in the river will produce wild progeny when (if) they return.....tho NOT native. Ever go down to the river on a nice summer evening and see the absolute absence of feeding smolts, trouts, immiture steelhead, whatever we wish to call them. Basically the only "trout" we see in the system are the smolts when they get dumped during release times. Only competition for them for food is little squawfish, suckers, and smallie fry.....dang few wild fish.
Other systems, where there are still hopeful #'s of wild fish, I do believe it could be detrimental to have a continuous supply hatchery fish pumped into the system. An occasional supplimental planting may be of some benefit......maybe.
....lee s.

[lee s.]

Bill,
I have wondered the same things you do about the Smith.
I believe you do have C&R fishing applied to wild fish everywhere else and our coastal rivers between the Russian and the Eel get no hatchery fish, making them virtually all wild fish. I did hear of ONE stray hatchery fish on the Gualala last season.
Things can tend to get real crowded, what with everyone knowing the timing of the tides and all, yes?

[jbird]

howzabout a stroll down memory lane? :-)

http://kiene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12062

Jay

[590Mike]

Carl
I just read an article in Fly Rod and Reel, the author was suggesting we should take hatchery fish out of the system to keep stockers from mixing with wild fish.

[Scott V]

If you want to eat a fish, go ahead and take a hatchery. Isn't that what they are for?

[Bob Laskodi]

My personal rule is that if it's a hatchery fish and you want to eat it, go right ahead with it and don't apologize for doing so. If it's a wild fish (regardless if it's legal to kill), you should always release the fish.

[Pez]

here it goes...now the latest fashion statement "keep the hatchery steelhead". Everyone against the stocks!. Just a few weeks ago it was all about catch and release. I can't believe how much sheep are around!. Watch out we are going to be mixed up with the meat lovers/bait dunkers/hardware slingers!.

[Dustin Revel]

So almighty Pez educate us... what should we do?

[jbird]

way to go Carl! lol

Anyone want to make wager on how long this thread will play out? I am going to do my best to hold my tongue...er...my fingers...

Let the games begin! :-)

J

[aaron]

Jbird does it make a difference if it's caught with an indicator or the swing?:p
Ok I'm done with this thread too :lol:

[jbird]

Aaron

Nope...I'll kill em all! In fact, I set the hook so hard I snap their necks. They come in a little easier that way. Im actually trying to develope a fly that has a straight razor, to slash their gills on the hookset too. I only target hatchery fish tho of coarse! ;-) ;-)

Jay

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!!!

[Pez]

So almighty Pez educate us... what should we do?

What ever happened to "a fish is to valuable to be caught only once". Every year there are fewer fish than the year before so it's up to us to do a little math...the more we keep the less will have. Having said that I don't have any problem if someone is keeping one here and there. The Russian, American, and Feather have a lot of pressure due to the number of anglers fishing those waters so I think we should practice moderation if we don't waters to be depleted.

[shawn kempkes]

What ever happened to "a fish is to valuable to be caught only once". Every year there are fewer fish than the year before so it's up to us to do a little math...the more we keep the less will have. Having said that I don't have any problem if someone is keeping one here and there. The Russian, American, and Feather have a lot of pressure due to the number of anglers fishing those waters so I think we should practice moderation if we don't waters to be depleted.

The hatchery only spawns about 300 fish a year to get its egg quota. On years where there is high water There may be over 10000 fish that return to the hatcheries that don't get caught by anglers and that aren't need to meet the egg quota. There have been several studies that show hatchery fish that naturally spawn (with other hatchery fish or wild fish) don't produce viable offspring. I say kill all hatchery fish you catch

[Pez]

The hatchery only spawns about 300 fish a year to get its egg quota. On years where there is high water There may be over 10000 fish that return to the hatcheries that don't get caught by anglers and that aren't need to meet the egg quota. There have been several studies that show hatchery fish that naturally spawn (with other hatchery fish or wild fish) don't produce viable offspring. I say kill all hatchery fish you catch

If the hatchery steelies don't have viable offspring, why should we worry? Either they'll die of old age or end up in somebody stomach. The worst thing they might do then is give us a serious rod bend!! Which is good!. God save the stockers!!!!

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Don't get excited about any of this because we have had the same discussions for about 40 years now. I can't believe there are any fish left but there are.

There are so many variables in the ecology that I don't believe anyone has the answers to any of this.

Just try to enjoy the days you have here on earth and don't worry about what others are doing.

We have little control over what goes on here on earth so enjoy it while it lasts.

Politics and religion are the real proof that we don't know much......no body does.

Really wise people know they don't know much.

People with answers are the ones who are in the dark.........

I think it's time for my meds?

[jbird]

wow Bill...Thats DEEP! :-)

[Hairstacker]

wow Bill...Thats DEEP!

It was . . . Obi-wan Kiene. :D

[aaron]

Im actually trying to develope a fly that has a straight razor

Bill SHaadt had a razor fly back in the day that he used to cut other folks lines without them ever figuring it out. It's show briefly in the upcoming River's of A Lost Coast film.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

the good stuff.......

[David Lee]

Don't get excited about any of this because we have had the same discussions for about 40 years now. I can't believe there are any fish left but there are.

There are so many variables in the ecology that I don't believe anyone has the answers to any of this.

Just try to enjoy the days you have here on earth and don't worry about what others are doing.

We have little control over what goes on here on earth so enjoy it while it lasts.

Politics and religion are the real proof that we don't know much......no body does.

Really wise people know they don't know much.

People with answers are the ones who are in the dark.........



Bill -

Thanks for the most sound , least bullshit post EVER -

I think most of us tend to forget that we're talking about fishing ..... something that's supposed to be FUN , not life and death serious .

We should carve this one on your headstone when you die in 2031 (along w/ my personal fave ....... "I'm afraid of all large animals , and most small ones , too" ) .

Great perspective there !

David

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

We are lucky to have fishing as our passion because it's about interacting with others and going outdoors in the "wilds".

Thanks David......

[nrthcsteel]

[QUOTE=Bill Kiene;53796]We are lucky to have fishing as our passion because it's about interacting with others and going outdoors in the "wilds".

Bill whatever your smoking dont stop! And the doctor prescribing your meds , I may need his number one of these days!
This along with your previous words of wisdom are probably two of the best posts I have ever read period. In many posts we learn about rods,lines reels and what are the hot new items at the moment. We take that info and off we go happy for the moment until the "NEW HOT ITEMS" come out.
Well the "info" you shared in your two posts will never get old. And anyone reading it will learn something that will last a lifetime and will be put to use every day they are fortunate enough to be able to go fishing.
With the winter steelhead season upon us thanks for sharing this "info" with us Bill. Ill take it to the water every day and put it to good use. Your words are something that will improve my fishing for the rest of my life.
Happy Holidays to you and your family Bill and to everyone else also. Kevin

[wjorg]

The offspring of hatchery fish and wild fish mating are also less likely to "reproduce successfully" as with the original hatchery fish.

[Pez]

Yep, Yep, we are all so smart and educated, read all the propaganda/fashion pushing magazines and buy into all the politian's hidden agenda garbage.......then we go fishing and hooked that 10# + leaping out the water, rod bending steely...after a few minutes we landed the beast to see a full fin. Just what I thought, a nice native......was it or was it not? was it half and half?
Come on!

[Dustin Revel]

I don't read fishing magazines... can't afford em, and they are always checked out of the library. Instead i read fisheries journals, and pay attention in my fisheries class.
I look at data, and the data tells me to kill hatchery fish. They take up valuable spawning habitat in some streams and in other streams they just stick to the main stem where the wild fish wouldn't spawn anyways. I don't really know the situation on the russian but in the trinity river system where I've found hatchery fish where they could possibly reduce the total recruitment of wild fish I will kill it without hesitation. That being said if I caught a nice hatchery hen in douglas city that was full of eggs I'm not sure I'd be able to poke my blade into its rakes.

[East Bay Ed]

Now that we've talked the relative merits of releasing or keeping a hatchery fish, let me as this question? Is anyone going up to fish the Russian in the next week? I'm going to try to make a run when there is a break in the weather. If I'm fortunate enough to catch a hatchery fish, it will help supplement my retirement income by giving its all for dinner.

East Bay Ed

[Pez]

I don't read fishing magazines... can't afford em, and they are always checked out of the library. Instead i read fisheries journals, and pay attention in my fisheries class.
I look at data, and the data tells me to kill hatchery fish. They take up valuable spawning habitat in some streams and in other streams they just stick to the main stem where the wild fish wouldn't spawn anyways. I don't really know the situation on the russian but in the trinity river system where I've found hatchery fish where they could possibly reduce the total recruitment of wild fish I will kill it without hesitation. That being said if I caught a nice hatchery hen in douglas city that was full of eggs I'm not sure I'd be able to poke my blade into its rakes.

The American and the Russian are the closest rivers tho the bay area (except smallers creeks that I won't mentioned and everyone knows) and they provide us with decent fishing for steelhead and salmon without having to drive 4 or 5 hours. For these reasons and many others ones I don't see them as viable as others ones to pursue a pure strain fishery. thanks for releasing that hipothetical fish and althought for some may not be the "perfect fish", I'm sure will provide you with a smile and a reason to go back to the river.

[Pez]

Now that we've talked the relative merits of releasing or keeping a hatchery fish, let me as this question? Is anyone going up to fish the Russian in the next week? I'm going to try to make a run when there is a break in the weather. If I'm fortunate enough to catch a hatchery fish, it will help supplement my retirement income by giving its all for dinner.

East Bay Ed

There you go! That's a compelling reason for the hatchery fish. I maybe there between the storms. Good luck.

[mr. 3 wt.]

Kill em' all, release em' all, whatever. Killing a fish now and then to eat is cool. It's the guys who kill everything they catch, show off to everyone that they are the best fisherman in the world, throw it in the freezer and throw it away a year later. Those are the truly pathetic ones out there. Unfortunately, here in the Sacramento area, in an around the American River and I would imagine the Russian and Feather as well, there are hundreds if not thousands of these "poor excuse of an angler" type running around poaching our resources.

[Pez]

Kill em' all, release em' all, whatever. Killing a fish now and then to eat is cool. It's the guys who kill everything they catch, show off to everyone that they are the best fisherman in the world, throw it in the freezer and throw it away a year later. Those are the truly pathetic ones out there. Unfortunately, here in the Sacramento area, in an around the American River and I would imagine the Russian and Feather as well, there are hundreds if not thousands of these "poor excuse of an angler" type running around poaching our resources.

Right on the money!!. I used to keep one a year. Nowdays I don't, however, if you want to keep some here and there, that's healthy. Aren't we suppose to eat fish twice a week?

[Dustin Revel]

Right on the money!!. I used to keep one a year. Nowdays I don't, however, if you want to keep some here and there, that's healthy. Aren't we suppose to eat fish twice a week?

dpeends on the area. the trinity river area was mined pretty extensively and mercury was commonly used. Check the regulations if your concerned by it, if not eat up and like 3 wt said don't keep 'em unless you're gonna eat 'em

[590Mike]

Dustin are you saying the fish in the Trinity aren't edible?

[Dustin Revel]

thats not at all what I'm saying. trinity fish may have a small amount of mercury in them check the regulations. if it is an issue dfg will list the max you should eat per week (somewhere in the beginning of the booklet)

[Bruce Berman]

Last year when the Trinity was clogged with steelies, a well-respected fisheries biologist in a boat pleaded with a few of us waders to keep our limits of hatchery fish. Why? For many of the reasons already listed AND because if too many excess fish make it back to the hatchery for too many years, hatchery funding will be lost. The hatcheries CAN do too good of a job.

Funny how this year that all got blown out of the water.

I also heard that some agencies were advising guides to encourage their clients to keep hatchery fish this year. All the reasons for that have already been discussed in this thread.