Rods made in the US

[bearcrawl]

Are Sage or Scott rods still made in the US?
Funny, but I can't find the answer on line.
Thanks

[shawn kempkes]

all sage rods are being rolled on bainbridge island, Scott rods are made in colorado.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I think that is true..............Sage, Scott, T&T and G.Loomis are all US made.

Some have imported low end and then still US made high end series.

Orvis and Winston have imported low price rods and then their top of the line is still US made.

Redington, TFO and Echo are all imported rods.....................but get values.

[epzamora]

sage's "value priced' rods are imported.

eric
fresno, ca.

[aaron]

sage's "value priced' rods are imported.

Yah, or NOT.
A 5 second phone call reveals...all still made in Washington.

[bearcrawl]

Hey Carl,
Just what you are going on about? I don't really care where the rods are made I was just curious. I drive a Chev and a VW (not sure what that has to do with fly rods???) BMW and Merc are made in Germany for the record.

[SHigSpeed]

Hey Carl,
Just what you are going on about? I don't really care where the rods are made I was just curious. I drive a Chev and a VW (not sure what that has to do with fly rods???) BMW and Merc are made in Germany for the record.

Not that it has ANYTHING to do with fly fishing, but some BMWs and Mercedes are made in South Carolina and Alabama.

Some Chevys are made in Canada and Mexico. The list goes on and on...

:)

_SHig

[Don Powell]

Hey Boys,

Don't get a "knot in your knickers" over the site of manufacturing!
Most fly fishers are somewhat discriminating to have chosen fly fishing as their preferred mode of being outdoors and capturing one of nature's gifts, and for the most part we release that gift such that others may enjoy the same pursuit.
But, quality still counts. We will try many different rods, reels, lines and flies and in the end, we, and only we, will judge which products are superior and deserving, just like the technique chosen to pursue our quarry and in what locations and with what booking agents, guides.

In my life, it has served me well to always to "Go with the Best!" regardless of origin! If the best costs more, I forego a few expenses and procure it. If it is a bargain, I think "How long is this going to last?"

What we deem to be the best is going to survive and prosper because we are lucky enough to have a choice and exercise it with our choice (and money).

Don

[roostersgt]

I draw the line when it comes to fly fishing equipment. I only buy rods and reels built in America and England. It means something to me to invest in these products. I can't say that about my TV, car, stereo etc... , but I will not fish with Korean or Chinese at this point in my life. My recreational endeavors lean this way even though I have bought a couple of TFO's. One as a gift, the other as a specialty 2wt rod which was used exactly twice before buying a 3wt Winston BIIT. Quality? No comparison. Price? Oh well. I'll take Sages, Winstons, Powells, Scotts and Loomis Classics anyday over the cheaper imports. I'm not sure I would ever buy one of their import rods. I'd rather purchase a "lighly" used American or English made rod or reel.

As for reels, I prefer the ABELS, J RYALLS, English HARDYS and English made Orvis C.F.O.s. I like the old click and pawl styles without drags, since I only catch the lil' ones. I also had a couple of Pleuger Medalists and an older Ross Reels G series. Simms is the only wader I'll now buy.

Is this a political statement on my part? Possibly. My cars and major appliances are German and Japanese (who knows where they were really assembled).

That's just my two cents and please do not entertain the thought of my being an elitist. I'm far from it and definately blue collar.

Steve

[jbird]

Excellent post Don. Very well said

Roostrsgt; how can you honestly follow up your post with that last sentence? Its one of the most elitist posts I've seen on this board.....Barring indicator topics ;-)

I personally buy the best product I can afford. I am a big fan of good customer service.

Jay

[David Lee]

Just another 2 cents here ......

As long as it comes from a FRIENDLY country ..... it's a non-issue for me . Gear made in China is a personal no-no .

Every rod I've cast that was made in Korea (TFO , Albright) have been great . Good enough for Lefty , good enough for my sorry arse .

Just an opinion .

David

[bonneville54]

It’s hard to argue (or discuss) dispassionately about a subject like this and rather than give just my opinion, I thought I’d recount my companies experience with sourcing overseas and see what sticks. Of course, I don't make expensive fly rods or reels...and we weren't looking for a less expensive line of our product.

This is the short version, many details left out. (believe it or not)

I have a small manufacturing/distribution company, started some 20 years ago by a couple of bums in a garage. It grew steadily and slowly over the first few years until we landed the Home Depot account. This was about 17 years ago (if I recall correctly- memory fuzzy in my old age) when they(Home Depot) were considerably smaller – at the time the Northeast division had only 8 stores – and we grew with them. (BTW, I was so impressed with the people at HD then, I bought the stock and it’s paying for my kid’s education.) As we grew, we invested in the infrastructure needed to serve HD, landed Lowes, True Value, etc. and at our peak (personnel wise) employed 120 people – about 90 or so in the plant. We then wanted to expand our line – needed too really, to stave off competition.

Unfortunately, we could not source the quality we wanted domestically. We tried, yet could find no one in the US that could produce the product and off to China we went. Eventually, these imported products rose to about 45% of our sales. All going swimmingly…..still employing lots of folks, products from China doing well…until the dot.com era.

Soon, I can’t find employee’s to make the our bread and butter products. I lose twenty people over six months, wages and benefits increase, and production drops and I’m falling behind, customers are not happy. One day, I’m moaning about this to our Chinese vendor and he mentions, “we could do want you want”. I’m intrigued and agree to have samples made and pricing worked out. Meanwhile, we invest in new machinery to attempt to take up the slack of our personnel losses. (Interestingly enough, German machinery, try finding an American made 4 headed moulder at any price) I’m still falling behind, we’re going through employee’s like never before – we’re hiring drunks and idiot's, training costs soar as most can’t read a tape measure – BTW, our starting wage ( non-union ) was, at that time, $10.50/hr, 100% medical benefits, profit sharing plan, etc.- Frankly, it was a most difficult time, sales are soaring, but so are costs and production and quality is dropping.

China? We AGONIZED over this, probably for too long. Have we looked at every possibility? Is there anyway we can compete/invest and keep production here? This was the product that I had built with my hands when we started…it was heart wrenching. As you might guess, after much discussion and consultation…we went overseas. We now export raw materials ( milled oak, cherry, maple, etc. ) to China where it’s assembled, packaged and sent back to us. We still employ 30 highly skilled workers in the plant for our custom work and have distribution workers on both coasts.

Certainly there are a lot more details about a decision to source overseas that a small company needs to make than can be stated in this forum. Am I a schmuck for doing it?

Maybe.

I visit the factories in China at least two times a year, no prison labor, no exploited kids. These are small businessmen who want to get ahead, make a better life and can see it for the first time. I eat with them, know them, laugh with them and yes, trade with them. These people are my friends. Did I "ship American job's oversea's"? I suppose one could characterize it that way. However, my current employee's work at a stronger more secure company, making better wages and benefits then they might have had we stayed the course. I guess my point is that many of us who trade with lower labor cost countries are not cold hearted corporate shills trying to make a quick cheap buck on the back of the American worker - it's not that simple. In addition, my risks have been rewarded to where I can afford to buy the American made Sage or Winston, to hire that guide, to shop at great stores like Bill's.

Lastly, a word about the “big boxes” as it's kind of related. Yep, their tough, but they don’t hold a gun to your head. They pay on time (Their time, that is - my last terms with HD were 2%10, net 60) and, for the most part, are fair. We don’t sell to Walmart, pitched them, the deal wasn’t right and we walked – no harm, no foul. I actually kinda admire the Sam Walton story. Interestingly enough, we don't sell HD or Lowes anymore either. When metal costs took a jump a few ago, we found we could not absorb the cost increases. When we attempted to raise prices to HD...they declined and they are now doing business with one of my competitors. Tough? Sure. Unfair? Not on your life.

Just thought I’d throw a little different perspective into the discussion….flame away!

[wjorg]

I started out with a TFO. They replaced a rod I burned down to the graphite hair it becomes when your car rolls and catches on fire and burns with all your fly gear in it. I could have roasted a walmart special and they wouldnt have known any better. Great customer service!! Every time Ive broken a rod Ive been able to upgrade to the new model for the difference.
I fish probably over 1000 hours a year or more......and can destroy flyfishing gear by looking at it(yes Im ugly but thats not the point). I have tried to negotiate with American fly fishing manufacturers(nameless for their sake) when their product fails and been told to eat it, almost literally. And then when an agreement was reached it takes them 8 friggin months to get me the replacement! If you pay several hundred dollars(Im am by far not wealty to American Standards) for something, you expect it to last. Ive found American quality going down the tube, like that of our steel.
Its not just about where its made but how it will last based on your use, and the level of customer service behind the product.

By the way....dont rip of TFO, bad karma. And I sent them photos of my burned car that supposedly ended up in a plaque on their wall with my burnt rod as a testament to their customer service, they knew I was legit.

[Darian]

Bonneville,.... You appear to have your head screwed on straight. You certainly don't have to explain any of your motives/decisions to us. I enjoyed the post and applaud your success. :nod: BTW, thanks for leaving out all the "details". ;)

[bearcrawl]

This is one of the best Hijacks I've seen. Pretty much asked a yes/no question and started WWIII.
Who said things made offshore are lesser? I (as most of us) buy thing from all over the world. Never thought I would see the day Filson stuff would be made overseas. I still buy it cause it's the best.
CARL my English is fine, but if you would like, I also speak Svenska and Spanish. For the record, I understood what you were saying I just didn't understand why you where saying it.

[Hairstacker]

This is one of the best Hijacks I've seen. Pretty much asked a yes/no question and started WWIII.

:lol: Ask that question on any flyfishing board and you will get similar results.

I look for great value (i.e., quality vs cost) and buy what I can afford regardless of country of origin. Sometimes I wonder if I'm missing out by not having the latest and greatest but so it goes. . . . :)

[bonneville54]

You certainly don't have to explain any of your motives/decisions to us.

Thanks...not meant to explain, per se...(or hijack, sorry) just show, perhaps, that different perspective.

Bearcrawl, your question was quite innocent and straightforward....I could have guessed this thread would evolve (or devolve) into a import issue. Gosh, given the economic climate - it's on a lot of peoples minds.

Including mine. My apologies.

Regarding quality...you're right, importing doesn't always mean lesser quality... although.... I'll bet there are those to whom it does mean exactly that in regards to fly rods.

[roostersgt]

Bonneville54,

If you knew anything about me you wouldn't question my denial of being "elitist". I just prefer to buy American made when it comes to my fly rods and reels. I have owned TFO's and have nothing against them. But they do not compare, not even their higher end rods, to the best made in America. That you went overseas to have your products made cheaper says a lot about your business. You put your businesses bottom line over local skilled workmanship. That works well with most products and companies. Like I said, when it comes to rods and reels, you won't catch me using foreign stuff over American. They can't compete in my opinion, or is it just my perception? It's also a choice of mine that's much appreciated by "our" rod and reel manufacturers and workers.

I have had rods and reels quickly replaced and spoken to rod designers, reel companies, company owners, managers etc... with no problems whatsoever at Winston, Loomis, Sage JRYALL, Hardy and Scott. I've visited some of their factories and gone on tours. Yeah, the worlds' businesses have gone global, but I don't have a dog in that fight, you apparently do/did. I make my living doing other things, things that don't have to compete with cheap labor and manufacturing.

Call me a protectionist, one who supports our country and our allies products, but don't call me an elitist. I also don't order my equipment from catalogues, even though I could probably get it cheaper than at my local flyshop.

[aaron]

This is gonna get good...:eek:

[SHigSpeed]

Call me a protectionist, one who supports our country and our allies products, but don't call me an elitist. I also don't order my equipment from catalogues, even though I could probably get it cheaper than at my local flyshop.

I'm always game for a good discussion:

So in your first post you mentioned that you buy stuff from US and English manufacturers. Then you say you support your country and allies? What makes Britain and ally and Korea an "enemy"? Now that some once acceptable reels from Britain are now being made (to the same if not better standards from what I've read) in Korea, are they no longer worthy? Because they cost half as much now? Or because they're made
"over there".

Does Japan count as an ally? Will you buy a US made Loomis, even though the profits go to Shimano? Or will you reject them because some of their rods are made overseas? How is Korea, a constitutional republic very similar to the US, any more or less worthy than the UK, a constitutional monarchy? Didn't we fight a war to break away from them?

I guess how you spend you money really is up to you, and whatever flings your flies is also. I have to admit that to date no imported rod has reviewed as well as the best domestic stuff, but reels are more hazy. I currently don't have the saavy, skills, or scrilla to justify buying the domestic gems so I buy what I can afford, and I catch fish.

I am, however, looking forward to the day when an imported rod will go head to head with a top quality US one, and I'll most likely buy what's cheaper.

Hope that doesn't make me TOO bad a person...

_SHig

[Black Cloud]

I wonder what a guy named Bill Schaadt would think about this discussion of rods and reels. He uses a one piece fiberglass with a Pflueger reel.

[Hairstacker]

So in your first post you mentioned that you buy stuff from US and English manufacturers. Then you say you support your country and allies? What makes Britain and ally and Korea an "enemy"? Now that some once acceptable reels from Britain are now being made (to the same if not better standards from what I've read) in Korea, are they no longer worthy? Because they cost half as much now? Or because they're made
"over there".

An excellent point. Since England is not "American-made" either, I've never understood the willingness to buy from England but not from Asia. I'll leave it at that.

[Scott V]

Shig you are a bad person, or atleast crazy. Anyone that stands on a pontoon is a nut in my book. But I'll fish with yuo any day.

As for american or wherever made. I will buy what ever fits in my budget, we are a country of many nations therefore I will buy from any nation.

[bonneville54]

If you knew anything about me you wouldn't question my denial of being "elitist".

roostersgt,

If anything in my post implied that I thought you or anyone else is elitist, you have my sincerest apology. That was not my intent at all. Quite honestly, I'm not even sure what "elitist" means.

I was only trying to show another frame of reference, if you will, of this....issue. I think we both agree that it's reasonable for a company to make a profit, yet, it was not a matter of "putting the bottom line over skilled workmanship", it was, in our case, as simple as deciding that a smaller (by # of employee's) and profitable company was better than the bigger risk of no company at all - with the attendant loss of all jobs and investment.

Buying decisions are often complicated and personal and I'm certainly in no position to judge anyone else. I own both imported and American made rods and even with my unsophisticated casting skills, I prefer the American made also.

Again, my apologies...

[mems]

Aloha guys, I went fishing this afternoon and got a nice bonefish. It didn't care what kind of rod or reel or line I used. It did think my pink puff was a shrimp and that is all that really mattered. Go fishing! Mems.

[Lucky]

America was built on competition..Whether cars, flyrods, or electronic equipment. I buy the best product at the price point I want to spend. If the American fly companies are the best they will compete. Just like the rest of the industries in the world.

[roostersgt]

No offense taken from anyone's comments on this thread. I prefer to support England and consider them an "ally" as they have fought side by side with our great nation in every war/battle since we broke away from them. Every single one without fail. I can't say that about any other nation (friendly or not). Therefore, they get my economic support everytime. That decision weighed heavily on my mind when I bought my Landrover (the cheezy $27k model). I also try to buy Australian products when I can (they make flyfishing equipment?) and considered a Subaru, but it didn't compare to the utility of the Rover.

I fully understand the need to buy quality and the requirement that business needs to compete in the world-wide labor market. I prefer to support American and English Labor/employees. The only way to do this is by buying "their" products, not the products that were outsourced to other trading partner nations. American and English companies who "outsource" can maintain their profits and bottom line, but what about the American and English workers? That's why I try to buy only that equipment made in USA or England, even though they cost more. I couldn't care less about China, Korea, or Japans workers.

BTW, I'm not normally some type of pro-union labor nut, but I keep seeing more and more of our products being made/assembled or being sold from overseas and it bothers me. Our trading situation is so out of whack that it hurts American business and labor. Thankfully, I have a job and a working wife, which permits me the ability to afford to keep paying for the products and businesses I like to buy and support.

Yes, I too would fish anything you gave me, if I didn't have a choice, or it was "loaner" equipment. My arguement only pertains to my purchasing and using preference. Fish still don't know what type of equipment you're using, or where it was made, but I do. This all may seem silly to some and to them I say I hope this thread was both entertaining and thought provoking. Happy Holidays!

Steve

[aaron]

Had you bought the Subaru, I would have paid to see the reaction on your face when you found out not only are they a Japanese company but one of the founders Chikuhei Nakajima was a primary supplier of aircraft and parts to the Japanese government during WWII.

It seems like you're ignoring what Bonneville has to say about not being able to find quality workers/craftsmanship here and that those he does business with in China are small business owners like a lot of Americans with the same goals. We live in a global economy and nationality is becoming pretty arbitrary.

And btw the money for you're land rover went to and Indian company that has plants in the U.K., Spain, Brazil, Turkey, and IRAN. Kind of ironic that in supporting the allies you are also supporting a company that does business with who we are told is the 'enemy' :rolleyes:

[roostersgt]

Aaron,

You got me there. I get egg on my face for my support of Subaru. Good thing I didn't buy one. I got taken in by the Aussie advertisements. However, all Landrovers are made in England by Englanders and the company has been owned by the Ford Motor Company since I believe 2001, that same year they also bought Jaguar. Landrover kept their patents so the parts are all genuine Landrover and made in England. All my brochures couldn't have been wrong when I purchased the thing in 2002.

Another point is: where the parts are made is irrelevant in my book, it's the laborers I like to think I'm supporting. How about we stick to my main points, which is more relevent to this board, American and English rods and reels? Keep in mind, this is only my preference, you all can buy and use whatever flings your flies and makes you happy. It makes me feel warm and fuzzy to "think" I'm supporting fellow Americans and Englanders, whether that be 100% accurate or not. Don't take this from me.

And I don't consider countries that are not our "allies" to be our enemies. They're just not our "allies".

Steve

[aaron]

Ford dumped LR/Jag to Tata motors of India in 08. Certain parts have been made worldwide including in Iran even before the sale.

Like Bonneville says, when you're paying a good wage and %100 benefits and still can't find decent labor you have to look out for your bottom line. Either way you're still supporting American business owners, importers, distributors, retailers etc. To me claiming to buy strictly American is pretty ridiculous as you're probably not and you're also neglecting a lot of other really good American business who are just trying to survive.

[roostersgt]

Aaron,

It's probably my loss and what some would consider a waste of money, but I'm not going to stop trying to support American workers. I'll continue to only buy rods manufactured (assembled) in the USA or England. Same goes for my reels. I'm not naive enough to think that all the parts that make up these tools are made in these two countries. Remember, I'm a self-admitted psuedo protectionist and so-called nationalist. I still don't buy that an emerging country can provide a better workforce than the US. Cheaper maybe, not better or more skilled.

Steve

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I believe that fly fishing companies that will survive in the US market will have to have a production cost of ~25% to be profitable.

The average consumer is probably insulted by that knowledge but to actually pay for all costs to get something to you, the consumer, the manufacturing costs have to be extremely low.

In our fly fishing world companies like LL Bean, Orvis and Patagonia probably have a costs of goods at about 20-30% or they will not make enough profit to "thrive".

The cost of doing business in the US is so high now it is eliminating anyone who is not positioned right.

This is a global economy and we have to realize that companies that survive by having their product made overseas in developing counties are just doing what is necessary.