Trinity River - Wild versus Hatchery Steelhead

[Frank Pipgras]

The steelhead fishing has certainly been exceptional the last few years on the Trinity. All it took was 15+ years of litigation by CalTrout, Friends of the Trinity and others to get more water into the system and look what happened. Just add water!

Last year there were about 46,000 steelhead returning to the Trinity with approximately 8,000 wild fish and 38,000 hatchery fish. Only about 1/3rd of the hatchery fish made it back to the hatchery which means hatchery fish are spawning in the river and probably cross polinating with wild fish as well as competing with kings, brownies and coho for habitat. I would like to see less production from the hatchery in order to try over the long term to reverse the ratio and create more wild steelies than hatchery. Open for comment, no flaming please.

[Jasonh]

Frank,

Good topic. I agree with you on this one. I have fished the Trinity quite a bit over the last 8 years and the number of wild fish i have landed seems to have decreased in the last couple of years. There has been a lot of talk from what i hear up there about cutting down on the number of smolts to be released by the hatchery in the next year or so. If you talk to Herb Burton, he is really pushing this. While it is great to have a big run of steelhead to fish for, it would be nice to have 20,000 wild fish and maybe 8,000-10,000 hatchery fish.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I am with you 100%.


With only wild fish it might take a total catch-n-release on the river to get it to work.

Artificial only, single barbless hooks, no bait too so the spin/conventional guys would get behind it.

[bigtj]

Latest research is tending towards the conclusion that hatchery fish aren't too successful at spawning and more or less make it more difficult for the wild fish to be as successful as they could be. I am for wild fish if possible. A combination of fewer smolts and raising the limit on hatchery fish might help who knows. All I can say it compared to the 90's when I was at Humboldt the fishing on the Trinity is about 1,000 times better now than it was.

[dtp916]

Frank,
it would be nice to have 20,000 wild fish and maybe 8,000-10,000 hatchery fish.

That would be awesome, but do you really think that the wild run could be double what the hatchery run is???

Could you tell me a river where there is a 20,000 wild and 10,000 hatchery steelhead run?

[jbird]

I wonder just how "wild" the wild trinity fish are?? With such a huge hatchery influence, I wouldnt be suprised if most of the gene pool is tainted.

J

[Frank Pipgras]

Frank,
it would be nice to have 20,000 wild fish and maybe 8,000-10,000 hatchery fish.

That would be awesome, but do you really think that the wild run could be double what the hatchery run is???

Could you tell me a river where there is a 20,000 wild and 10,000 hatchery steelhead run?

I think what we are really talking about are setting some goals here that can be achieved over a few years.

[shawn kempkes]

I would like to see 20,000 stream born spawners and zero hatchery brats.
Most of the rivers up and down the pacific coast don't have 8000 wild fish.

[bigtj]

As far as numbers go if I remember correctly the Trinity/Klamath has historically had larger numbers of steelhead than most rivers of similar length. I would not be surprised at all if someone were to tell me the Trinity/Klamath supported over 50,000 fish on average combined winter and summer run historically. Heck the Santa Ynez river north of Santa Barbara used to have a wild run of 14,000 fish per year as late as the early 1950's. I don't think it's a pipe dream to have 20,000 wild fish and 10,000 hatchery brats on the Trinity, especially with the new flow regime and good management. Something to shoot for at least.

Hey Jay, as far as "wildness" of the Trinity fish, I know even the hatchery fish are aggressive enough to smash a classic wet on a floater, and the wild fish are really great fighters. If the gene pool has been tainted it can't be that bad.

[dtp916]

I just want to hear of one river in the lower 48 that has a wild steelhead run of 20,000....

[Scott V]

I just want to hear of one river in the lower 48 that has a wild steelhead run of 20,000....

If you find it James you better take me. :lol:

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I think they might still be working on trying to taking down some of the dams on the Klamath River.

If that ever happens it could be interesting.

[Langenbeck]

Here is my data from the Rogue:
Summer Run: There are fishable numbers of steelhead in the Grants Pass area from late August until about the first week of December. The summer run of fish over Gold Rey Dam is typically about 8,000 fish of which 50-75% are of hatchery origin. The summer run over the last ten years has varied between 4,785 to 29,296 fish. Because of the high water temperatures in the Grants Pass area until early October, the fishing is limited to either early morning or late evening.

Winter Run: There are fishable numbers of steelhead in the Grants Pass area from about the last week of January until about the middle of April. The winter run of fish over Gold Rey Dam is typically about 8,000 fish of which 15-20% are of hatchery origin. The winter run over the last ten years has varied between 5,029 to 24,850 fish. High water during this period does limit the amount of productive time to fish during the winter run.

So in a typical year we get about 16,000 steelhead between summer and winter of which 10,000 are wild. Only hatchery fish can be kept with the exception of winter fish in excess of 24" during certain periods.

[Don Powell]

Nice data from the Rogue, Gordon...data that I respect because I know you fish regularly and are attuned to what is "happening"!

I have spent the last 15 years fishing the Trinity with friends who know that river very well...I am pleased with each and every steelhead that takes my fly. Hatchery fish have brought joy to days that otherwise would have been a blank, but I never, ever forget the excitement of seeing that intact adipose fin on a very special breed of fish in an exquisitely beautiful environment.

Wild fish are survivors in the truest and most noble sense of the word...their uncanny ability to survive is what makes them the prize that they should be regarded. Hatchery fish provide consistency in "catch rates" and encourage high utilization of the area (good) and crowding (bad). I personally preferred the days when there were few fish, mostly wild and very few fishermen.

All that said, the modern flyfisher must adapt and find enjoyment in whatever Nature and supplementation by well intended fisheries experts decree.

I truly believe we can have what we most desire however...comments in the posts above need to be communicated to DFG, a "better" fishery is a goal that can be attained through meaningful dialogue.

Regardless, I shall flyfish the Trinity until I die...

Don

[slim]

Gotta agree 100% with Don's post-I think you nailed it, Buddy!

[590Mike]

I remember around 1983 or 84 only 13 wild steelhead went through the laddrers on the Trinity, it was the same year the habitat project started clearing the older spawning beds of silt and debris. If memory serves the total cost was about $ 225,000.00 They placed sand and gravel in the spawning beds. Within a few years the wild count was up to 6000 fish and rising to 7500 the following year. I still wonder and ask why this wouldn't work on other rivers.
Now if people stopped taking fish for a year or two we would see a huge fish population.

[bigtj]

Dtp,

The Columbia river system gets way more than 20,000 steelhead. I've heard up to 300,000 but there are a lot of hatchery steelhead there as well. The latest fish count I saw for this year was over 150,000 but I don't know how it's broken down by wild vs. native. I would not be surprised at all if at one time the Columbia system had the largest population of steelhead of any river system in the world. Sad how far things have fallen.

PS the Quillayute system in Washington has had 20,000 wild winter fish and 10,000 hatchery fish in some recent years (I can send you a link to the data if you want) and that doesn't even include the 5,000 +/- fish summer run.

[dtp916]

Nice! That is a big, big piece of water! There better be a lot of them!

I never heard of the Quillayute, and dammit I was just in WA 2 weeks ago!

[shawn kempkes]

Dtp,

The Columbia river system gets way more than 20,000 steelhead. I've heard up to 300,000 but there are a lot of hatchery steelhead there as well. The latest fish count I saw for this year was over 150,000 but I don't know how it's broken down by wild vs. native. I would not be surprised at all if at one time the Columbia system had the largest population of steelhead of any river system in the world. Sad how far things have fallen.

PS the Quillayute system in Washington has had 20,000 wild winter fish and 10,000 hatchery fish in some recent years (I can send you a link to the data if you want) and that doesn't even include the 5,000 +/- fish summer run.

there have never been that many summer steelhead in the quillayute system we are talking maybe a couple of thousand at best.

[dtp916]

Dtp,

The Columbia river system gets way more than 20,000 steelhead. I've heard up to 300,000 but there are a lot of hatchery steelhead there as well. The latest fish count I saw for this year was over 150,000 but I don't know how it's broken down by wild vs. native. I would not be surprised at all if at one time the Columbia system had the largest population of steelhead of any river system in the world. Sad how far things have fallen.

PS the Quillayute system in Washington has had 20,000 wild winter fish and 10,000 hatchery fish in some recent years (I can send you a link to the data if you want) and that doesn't even include the 5,000 +/- fish summer run.

there have never been that many summer steelhead in the quillayute system we are talking maybe a couple of thousand at best.

So I was lied to? :(

[Covelo]

The Columbia routinely gets in excess of 300,000 steelhead with about 20-30% of them being wild fish. In 2001 they got over 600,000 steelhead.

http://www.cbr.washington.edu/dart/adult.html

Comparing other rivers with the Columbia is apples and oranges as the Columbia is made up of many river systems. The Russian and San Lorenzo Rivers supposedly carried in excess of 50,000 and 19,000 winter run, respectively. Problem with most fisheries now is dewatering and warming of the water. As the water warms the carrying capacity goes down exponentially. Even with restoration of spawning grounds, the amount of river miles that are still suitable makes reaching abundance levels like those above virtually unattainable.

I heard the Trinity got back 45,000 fish last year. Can anyone confirm that number?

[bigtj]

Shawn,

The harvest stats on Quillayute river steelhead are about 600-1,500 fish per year, according to wdfw :

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/papers/steelhead/oly_pen_esu.pdf

See page 19.

I have never seen firm escapement numbers, the number I threw out there is based on a buddy of mine who guides on the OP, but if 600-1,500 fish are being harvested a year, doesn't it make sense for the total return for the entire system is 5,000 fish? It's more than 1,000 or with those harvest numbers the run would be extinct, wouldn't it?

I have only fished up there a half dozen times, if you have some local knowledge we'd love to hear it. Whatever the run is, I made my post to show what a steelhead "factory" that system is, and nobody can dispute that.

[shawn kempkes]

[quote="bigtj"]Shawn,

The harvest stats on Quillayute river steelhead are about 600-1,500 fish per year, according to wdfw :

http://wdfw.wa.gov/fish/papers/steelhead/oly_pen_esu.pdf

See page 19.

I have never seen firm escapement numbers, the number I threw out there is based on a buddy of mine who guides on the OP, but if 600-1,500 fish are being harvested a year, doesn't it make sense for the total return for the entire system is 5,000 fish? It's more than 1,000 or with those harvest numbers the run would be extinct, wouldn't it?



Tj
I have been fishing the Quillayute system in summer and winter since 93. I am staying at my friends lodge on the Sol duc right now. The summer runs are almost predominately hatchery fish . They Keg up in the holes below the various hatcheries. I have never seen more than a couple of hundred fish in any of these holes. If there were 10,000 summer steelhead in these rivers dudes would be swinging from the trees like they are on the deschutes right now. That is simply not the case.


Winter runs are a different story. There are a alot more fish around. But nowhere near the 20,000 fish you stated. The Tribe is currently netting 5 days a week in the winter time. They traditionally have only netted 3 days a week. There are several more of them netting and they are netting further up the bogachiel than they traditionally have. The escapement goal for the whole quillayute system (hatchery+ wild) is 5900 fish. I would bet that the whole quillayute barely made escapement this year. Because the hatchery run was almost non existent.
The fishing wasnt that great for the wild fish either. The Hoh closed two weeks early because of week returns.

[bigtj]

What about the official numbers in the tables from WDFW? Did you read the link? Check out he pdf it's there in black and white. Remember the run estimates include the escapement plus bonked fish, including tribal, and we both know they are bonking a lot. And I never said 10,000 summer fish I said maybe 5,000, with harvest of 1,500 fish. Whatever it's not worth arguing, I believe the WDFW numbers. Check the official data if you want if not then no big deal we get our info from different places I guess. I am talking about the whole system by the way, the 'duc, bogie, calawah, and mainstem plus the tribs.

Table on page 20 says over 20,000 wild winter fish in late 90's and the average looks like about 15K. Maybe I'm just mis-interpreting the data, but the tables are there for anyone to see, I don't think your numbers of 5,900 are even close to the # of wild fish again check the official data.

PS the wild fish sport harvest was more than 5,900 fish in a lot of years, you must be confusing escapement with run size, there is a big difference between the two.

[shawn kempkes]

What about the official numbers in the tables from WDFW? Did you read the link? Check out he pdf it's there in black and white. Remember the run estimates include the escapement plus bonked fish, including tribal, and we both know they are bonking a lot. And I never said 10,000 summer fish I said maybe 5,000, with harvest of 1,500 fish. Whatever it's not worth arguing, I believe the WDFW numbers. Check the official data if you want if not then no big deal we get our info from different places I guess. I am talking about the whole system by the way, the 'duc, bogie, calawah, and mainstem plus the tribs.

Table on page 20 says over 20,000 wild winter fish in late 90's and the average looks like about 15K. Maybe I'm just mis-interpreting the data, but the tables are there for anyone to see, I don't think your numbers of 5,900 are even close to the # of wild fish again check the official data.

PS the wild fish sport harvest was more than 5,900 fish in a lot of years, you must be confusing escapement with run size, there is a big difference between the two.

some years the runs amy approach 20000 but that hasnt been the trend
lately.Now that the pennisula is the only place where you can kill wild fish.
I dont trust the escapement numbers put out by Wdfw. They get those numbers from the quillayute tribe. My friend was a biologist for the tribe.
He said they count fish that arent there, mark nests that arent being used.
You get the picture. The tribes have a vested interest in making sure that the escapement numbers exceed the goals for the system.

[Terry Thomas]

Covelo,
All of these numbers are quite interesting. When I was in Willow Creek last week they had the number of steelhead returned as "57,000 +" on the bulletin board in the good old Pizza Factory. I contacted the senior hatchery supervisor in Sacramento today and asked for the total fish counts for last year. The numbers that I received were counts into the hatchery. Obviously, there are many more fish that don't make it to the hatchery. That being said, the numbers are FAR from those published elsewhere. The totals for last year into the hatchery were: 11,395 from Sept. to March. For the previous year, the total was 11,904. I also believe that most people would admit that there are many more hatchery fish than wild fish. So let's round it up to 12,000 fish. I find it hard to believe that there were @46,000 steelhead spread out below the hatchery. It's always interesting to see how the numbers game plays out.

[Covelo]

Thanks Terry. I always am skeptical of annecdotal stats. The DFG used to post hatchery returns on its web page but now you have to call the hatcheries manager. I did find this powerpoint presentation on the steelhead recovery plan.

www.psmfc.org/.../2006%20Steelhead/Perry_California%20Steelhead-End%20of%20the%20Rainbow.ppt

It would have been nice to hear the presentation but much can still be gleened from the slides. The most depressing slide, aside from the So Cal runs, is on the Sac steelhead which appear to be on their way out. The Trinity posts some pretty large numbers above the weir though nothing near the huge numbers rumored for last season except back in 1989. That was definitely a good year on the coast for many rivers. I have not fished the Trinity in many years but remember the weir being pretty close to the hatchery, suggesting that a good year might bring back over 30k steelhead combining above and below the weir escapements. Unfortunately there is no good way to access the wild component except for maybe via counting redds. Considering the number of miles of stream that would seem to be difficult.