Top Water Striper Set Up Inquiry

[OceanSunfish]

I hope the 'hard core' top water striper fly fisherman chime in to the following question:

What has been the best rod, line and pattern combination with regards to casting accuracy, distance, and ease.

I've found that I can pick up any most decent 8 or 9 weight rods and 'chuck' 350 to 400 grains of LC or T14 with 'featherduster' attached to get above satisfactory results. (phishy feeling is another issue) However, I've not found the same using a floating head or integrated floating line along with gurgler, big RD crease fly, etc.

I can chose to use rods within the enormous price range available today, but obviously, if a "TFO" price point rod works, then viola!

I appreciate the honest responses meaning that if a Sage TCR 9 weight has been the outright winner, then so be it. I'm not just 'phishing' for what has come to be the ubiquitous "for the money, this rods works great" type replies.

Thanks.

[JerryInLodi]

OceanSunfish,

I think you should pay much more attention to the line and less to the rod. Any medium fast action rod will probably cast the distance you want but you need to look at the head weight, head length, and running line diameter of your line choice to really get that fly out there.

For my LMB fishing I chose the Rio Bass taper line, two weights over my rod rating. I customized the lines by cutting off the first four feet of fly line, the forward taper. Doing so turned this line into a rocket ship that allowed casts of topwater flies 70-90 feet. However, I was disappointed in the fact that the line was in shambles after about 400 hours. Rio suggested I look at the Clouser topwater instead, a line with a little better components.

I also spoke to Tim Rayjeff. He recommended the AirFlo Fourty Plus. That is a really interesting line and comes with the bonus of a color band between the running line and head so you know when you start stripping the head into your guides. The line also has a fairly short head and narrow diameter running line, things I prefer when casting for distance.

The new Sage bass lines in 330 and 290 grains are of great interest to me and I plan to order two in the next week. I cast a 330 and was impressed with the overall design of the line but can't speak to its durability.

As for the rod, I look for a rod that has some power in the lower two thirds but allows some flex at the last three feet. The tip has to be stiff enough to stand up to the line and load up but soft enough that the rod is not a broomstick.

For rods ake a look at Sage but also look at Beulah and Echo as well as TFO.

[OceanSunfish]

Thanks Jerry. I agree, the line weight, length, etc. are critical.

I like to 'sling' 380 to 400 grains off T14, which is a smallish diameter line, on my real favorite rods. Whether I'm using a mono or AirFlo type running line, makes little difference in ease of slinging that line out on most any decent rod.

I've been using a Rio 378 grain floating shooting head in a full 30' length.


I think it's really time for me to shop for a rod specifically for top water stuff instead of relegating it to my least favorite rod in the arsenal. Hence, why I posted this inquiry. I'm not going to name the make or model, but my current TW rod is a "broomstick" that I wished I'd never purchased. (Apprently others feel the same way because I can't give it away when I've tried to sell it :lol: ) Yes, it can toss LC or T14, but what rod can't. It's terrible at tossing wind resistent shooting heads, like the floaters. And, it's terrible at providing me 'feel' when fishing subsurface stuff, thus why I relegated it to TW.

I'll just chalk this up to me having a real 'lemon' of a rod for my TW setup. Maybe it's time for me to give the TiCrx 8 weight a try after all these years. For as little as I get to fish and littler yet for top water, the price point fits the bill.

TFO offered to send me some rods to try and I think I'll have to take them up on their offer.

[matt johnson]

hey OceanSunfish,

I am certainly not a top-water striper expert, and this reply is not going to answer the questions about tackle in your original post, but I thought I would throw this out there:

Last December I fished with delta guide Kevin Doran and got an introduction to his passion for topwater stripers. Kevin had my partner and I throwing a "modified" version of the Rainy's "Bubble-Head" popper. Kevin had enhanced the silouette of these slim, easy to cast size 2/0 poppers by adding a few 4-5" hackles and flash to the tail of the popper.

These poppers were easy to cast and had a great action and profile when fished with the right retrieve. Kevin had these poppers rigged on the Sage Largemouth rod and line and on the #9 Sage TCR with a #9 Rio Outbound. Casts of 70' plus with positive turn-over were easy to achieve with either outfit.

Kevin offered that while larger poppers/surface flies and the associated tackle needed to throw them were indeed effective, he felt his modified Rainy's bubbleads were equally productive and MUCH easier to cast. Kevin put a lot more emphasis on learning the elements of right type of water/habitat/tide phase for surface success than on type of surface fly.

Hope this is of some worthwhile consideration. Matt.

Matt.

[Mrs.Finsallaround]

I just caught my first top water striper last week on my 8 wt. TFO professional series using the Sage largemouth line and the modified bubblehead popper. I was targeting LMB, but hey I'll take a 4 lb stripe any day! Although, I did catch a 4 lb LMB that day too... 8)
The largemouth line just flies out of my rod with little effort. I love it! :D

Good luck!

[Charlie Bisharat]

OceanSunfish,

In my experience , it is critical to be able to cast as far as possible.Whatever set up allows you to do that is what you want.Extreme accuracy is really not important as a person is generally prospecting large open water areas to find a willing fish.I think although you do get blow ups close to the boat or shore if you are wading,those fish have typically been tracking the fly for a great distance and therefore the ability to cover a lot of water is really important.I also think that being super quiet is critical to getting the bigger fish to eat on top,and the farther you are able to fish from the boat the easier that is acheived.
My set ups are geared for throwing very large top water flies and they do it very well. My current favorite is a 10wt Sage TCR with a 12 wt Rio Outbound floating line that I cut the first 6 ft off the front of and install a braided loop. My second favorite is a 10 wt Z-Axis with the same line set up.I know that I gained at least 15 to 20 extra feet of casting distance when I went to the TCR. To me that is critical. Hope this helps, Cheers Chas

[JerryInLodi]

Charlie, interesting that you and I came to independent conclusions that the front taper of our top water lines was a handicap and not an asset. I know, in my case, cutting the forward taper off the Rio Bass Popper line changed its characteristics dramatically for the better as far as I was concerned.

[OceanSunfish]

Charilie,

Thanks for your reply. It's exactly the 'honesty' I was hoping to hear when I posted my inquiry. I really wanted to know what the preferred rod was (#1 choice) for someone that puts their main emphasis on top water.

Thanks.

[lee s.]

Have any of you top-water guys tried any of the old Windcutter lines with poppers. Seems like it was basically a front loaded WF line for tossing into the wind....though I do not know why you would want a line to float in a chop. :wink: Like Charlie, we have a 10wt that handles our bugs fine with a DT 12 and a WF 12. Did not care for the Windcutter line, but it might be worth breaking it back out.....?:roll:
....lee s.

[OceanSunfish]

I do appreciate everyone's comments. And, I completely understand that I need to actually get out and try all the various configurations available on the market today. (There was a time when I actually was able to 'test drive' on the water at will instead of 'typing' at will.) :lol: Therefore, this correspondence is the best I can do for now until I can actually fish. Sad, I know. :cry:

It's great to hear the configs for those that like to cover water. I see that 'bigger' rods are used and of course even bigger lines. It's assumed that the patterns are huge too, i.e.; spook type stuff or long jointed tails, etc.

Is it safe to assume that the need to use 'big' rods to cover 'big water' and use 'big patterns' and catch 'big fish' offsets the negative of wind resistence in using big fat WF fly lines in #10 and above?

[Charlie Bisharat]

Oceansunfish,

It is just my philosophy or approach that has me throwing billfish sized flies for stripers. I do not think there is a fly fisherman alive that can throw TOO BIG a top water fly.There is no such thing in my view.I have never been interested in the reinvention of the top water wheel and therefore have looked to the CONSISTENTLY successful top water gear fisherman for what works and what doesn't. They use huge plugs, I mean huge, bodies 8" to 14"and some bigger yet.Many of them look like a booby prize from the state fair. They resemble a yellow lab with a mallard in it's mouth swimming back to the boat.
In this case I really do think that size matters. The Rio lines are the best thing that I have found and in fact I am working with Rio through John Sherman the local Rio rep, to dial in the length and weight of the head for both distance ,ease of cast, and most managable overhang.
As for rods, that is such a personal thing. I do know that the power that the TCR and Z-Axis can generate combined with the relative physical lightness of the rod has given me a huge advantage in distance and therefore fish catching has been better, especially with reguards to bigger fish.Hope this is helpful. Cheers Chas

[Charlie Bisharat]

Jerry,

I have found that if a fellow cuts down the front of the fly line and in it's place uses a twisted leader of 4 ft or so plus some heavy floro tippet you have acheived everything that the fly line was intended to do without adding the 6 to 8 ft of additional overhang.The outbound floater has a head length of 37.5 ft add 8 to 10 ft of leader and a large fly and that becomes a serious challenge for even the best of casters.
I have not made it to the water yet but I am anxious to try the prototype that is sitting on my tying desk, they may well have it licked with this one.Cheers Chas

[JerryInLodi]

Charlie, again, the same thing on a lighter scale. Insteaed of the forward taper of the flyline I use one of Leo's furled leaders on my seven weights with the #9 cut down bass taper. However, I'm ordering the new Sage bass lines and things may change since the 330grain line I tried seemed to do the job without the amputation.

[larsj]

Hi Charlie,

I'd be interested in knowing what flies you toss with your setup (the big ones!). I found a picture recently of a 13" bunker fly on an east coast forum that got me all excited :D

--Lars

[Charlie Bisharat]

Lars,

I am throwing flies of my own design that I hope to have commercially available from the Umpqua feather merchants in the fall or next spring at the latest. It just takes a damn long time to get through the whole process.
If you are interested in some great larger flies that ARE available commercially the fine folks at Kiene's have a good selection of Rainy's flies and they carry the RDCF which is a good top water fly.
Remember , nothing you can throw on a fly rod is TOO BIG.The action of the fly is as important as the size . You want a fly that slides and darts across the surface. Good luck with it. Cheers Chas

[larsj]

Hi Charlie,

Thanks for the info. I tie my own, so I'd be interested in pictures, if that's possible :) Huge topwater flies would be fun. I've also been looking at those east-coast flatwing sort of patterns.

regards,
--Lars

[Charlie Bisharat]

Lars,

Google Rainy's and you will have some good stuff to look at. I like their Mini Teaser pattern in Gray over white. Not near enough gap in my mind, in fact I would probably rig that fly with a stinger hook , but it is a well behaved pattern for sure. Good Luck Chas