It's Starting

[Jay Murakoshi]

Just read where they have closed Lake Casitas to outside boaters in fear of the quagga mussels. We were discussing this at the Pasadena show. It was mentioned that the forefathers were thinking about it and now they have taken action.
But it's not closed to all boating. If you are moored there and keep your boat there year round, then you can still use a boat but if you take your boat out of the water for any reason, then you will not be allowed to put in back in the lake.... even if you went and had the boat worked on.

Not being a boater myself, except for a pram, which by the way is not permitted, nor float tubes and other outside floating devices, I can see where other lakes will soon jump on the band wagon and close to outside boaters.

Jay

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... Kinda seems like every time there's some imagined crisis, the answer is to exclude some or all forms of recreation. Wonder how long it'll be before all of these agencies wake up and realize that people who are excluded don't tend to be sympathetic when time comes to fund restoration projects, etc. :? :? :?

[Dave Neal]

Darian...BINGO!

I think that is a scheme regarding a lot of cases. Just look at the Klamath River, Columbia and Snake River dams etc. I wholeheartedly believe that the "powers-that-be" are just waiting for the salmon to go extinct. Then there will be nothing to protect and "they" can just do what they damn well please.

I don't mean to get too off topic (with the mussels) here but I think the reasoning is similar.

[JD]

While I can understand the dissappointment of not being able to fish Casitas, why is this a problem? This is hardly a pristine wildness area, and all the caretakers are trying to do is prevent the introduction of an invasive species.

Heck, I wish someone had taken more definitive measures when they found the NZMS in Putah (or the Owen for that matter). As is, all we have to look forward to is the slow but steady spread of NZMS to the rest of the state's waters, mostly by fly fishers.

Of course, I'm still waiting for a Casitas conspiracy theory about record largemouth bass to explain the REAL motivation behind this ...

[Darian]

JD,.... From past history, the policy of exclusion appears to have never has solved the problem of the spread of invasive species. It merely slows it down (maybe). And it doesn't appear that any measures, other than exclusion, are on the table or in our future when Quagga's are found. Not sure I see a conspiracy here but there's definitely a lack of control or elimination activity from the scientific folks in this area (except for Northern Pike).

The point I was trying to make is that when fisherman are excluded as is happening all over this state, fishing license sales/revenues will naturally decline as will sales revenues from fishing gear, etc. All of this will eventually add up to reduced tax/license fees to the government and a further reduction in capability to deal with the situation. But, as you asked, "why is this a problem?"..... I wonder if you'd feel the same if Putah Creek or other rivers/streams where the NZMS is found was closed....

While the NZMS is a nuisance, they certainly don't seem to have affected the Trout population in Putah Creek or elsewhere for that matter.... Fortunately, exclusion hasn't been seen as the solution to the NZMS. Quagga's are another matter.

IMHO, exclusion is not much of a fix.

[JD]

Darian,

For the record, I would not have had any problem seeing Putah closed. Indeed, I'm actually still in favor of it, although I fear the cat is well out of the bag now. As far as the effect on the trout population, that remains to be seen. I've not heard any evidence that there has been no impact other than the anecdotal evidence of fly fishers and guides who have a vested interest in making sure it stays open. Are you aware of any scientific studies to the contrary?

My point is that if exclusion is the only step that can be taken, then I'm all for it even if it costs me water to fish. Casitas has the additional problem that it is primarily a water supply and I do not understand how one can fault a water utility trying to protect its resources in such circumstances.

You argue that exclusion is not much of a fix. That may be so, but until a better option comes along, it is the best available. If folks cannot be trusted to properly clean their equipment to prevent the spread of invasives, then what alternative is there? I am personally very glad that they did NOT take revenues into account when making what appears to be the prudent decision.

And the conspiracy reference was merely a poor quip.

[Darian]

JD,.... So, reduction in funding that might offer an opportunity to develop a solution to the NZMS invasion doesn't concern you.... IMHO, "....prudent...." is in the eye of the beholder.

Count me as one of the people who's not going to voluntarily pay for not playing while those in charge can exercise their collective lack of knowledge on this subject. Quagga Mussels do present a different problem than NZMS. However, if the Casitas water district was really interested in protecting their assets, why did they allow recreational boating, at all?? Certainly there's a bunch of pollution (human and outboard engine by-products) involved.... The risk of becoming infected with Quagga Mussels in SoCal isn't anything new....

The cat's already out of the bag where invasive species are involved and fish in infected rivers/streams all over the state are doing well in spite of NZMS presence. I'm not sure that a scientific study is required to identify the obvious....

The science I want to see developed is how to eradicate or mitigate the problem. When that happens, I'll support TEMPORARY closures while the solution(s) are applied.

[Dave Neal]

JD says...For the record, I would not have had any problem seeing Putah closed. Indeed, I'm actually still in favor of it, although I fear the cat is well out of the bag now. As far as the effect on the trout population, that remains to be seen. I've not heard any evidence that there has been no impact other than the anecdotal evidence of fly fishers and guides who have a vested interest in making sure it stays open. Are you aware of any scientific studies to the contrary?

OUCH...that was harsh.

So here in Mammoth Lakes you would be in favor of closing Hot Creek, Lower Owens, Upper Owens and Crowley Lake to fly fishing, hunting, boating etc. etc. just because NZMS are found in the water? Dude, that's A LOT of prime fishing and recreation water. Closing It would not only SERIOUSLY hammer our local economy but there would be a lot of pissed off people. And as a local guide I can say I would be just a teeny weenie small percentage of people affected by this so my "vested" interest is moot.

#1 Though I do believe NZMS are a serious problem, we have had them in our local (Mammoth) waters for at least 7-8 YEARS. Fish & Game was asleep at the wheel. As I have said in other posts...Hot Creek is doing just fine. I volunteered for the last electro shocking fish study this past fall and there are phenominal fish numbers of all age classes. Both the regional and state biologists were pretty blown away by the health of this fishery.

#2 Again, I wish we DID NOT have NZMS but we do. There are other more critical dangers to the health of our local fisheries. Water diversions, development, weak runoff years, increased siltation, warm water during hot months, low water flows, pollution etc. etc. Back in 2005 & 2006 we had huge winters, the runoff was killer, hence fewer of the above issues. Hot Creek et. al was unbelievably good.

#3 Who is to say that fisher folks are the MAIN culprit of spread in NZMS? I see plenty of ducks and geese migrating right through here. They roost and feed and party all over Hot Creek, then the Owens then out to Crowley then back again. Deer migrate and feed all through the eastern Sierra. How we going to close the river to them?

#4 Invasives are a big problem. I agree. Zebra and Quagga Mussels scare the crap out of me. Maybe we should consider boating transfer restrictions? But the world is going to end soon anyway. Seriously, we've been shitting in our own nest for too long. Let's just try(responsibly) to enjoy what fishing we have left. Closing waters is not the answer.

[JerryInLodi]

I think the greatest invasive species is ourselves! Our attempts to reshape nature in the form of aqueducts and canals has caused more distress to our fisheries than any OTHER invasive species.

[bigtj]

Casitas was built for water supply, recreation being an added benefit. The mussel invasion seriously jeopardizes the viability of the water supply. Doesn't it make sense that water supply takes a front seat over recreation? Millions - possibly hundreds of millions - of dollars in maintenance costs in perpetuity are at stake. I can certainly understand why the municipal water district are taking the precautions. Hopefully some day they can figure out how to control the mussels and everything can go back to normal. In the mean time erring on the side of caution seems like a good idea to me.

[Darian]

Maybe I haven't been clear in attempting to make my point here.... :? :? I used Casitas as an example (maybe not the best one....) because that was the subject of the original post. Of course, a water district has a right to protect their assets. My point is, at a higher level, the policy of exclusion is likely to have the unintended consequence of reducing the amount of money available for conservation activities. Exclusion, as a policy, is usually the result of a crisis management philosophy and, as such, represents failure. Exclusion almost always is implemented when "things" are going to hell in a hand basket.

If I recall correctly, purchases of recreational equipment, licenses, fees and excise taxes make up the majority of funding for recreation and conservation activities. People who are excluded from recreational activities by policy tend to stop making purchases, buying licenses or paying fees and lose interest in supporting conservation.... It's a tough enough sell as is. (I'm not overly interested in doing it.) I'd certainly be willing to fund research that results in solutions, tho.

At any rate, I think Jerry hit this on the head. We're the problem. :( :(

[Dave Neal]

I'm with you all the way Darian.

I think people get confused since you, Jay and JerryinLodi all holding the same Avatar Fish :lol: :D

[Darian]

Dave,.... I guess a Dorado in the Avatar's beginning to be a common photo. They're such a beautiful fish, I couldn't resist.... :lol: :lol: I think Tony Buzolich has one on here, too. :D :D

One of these days, I hope top have an avatar showing a Tarpon. Like Jbirds. :D :D :D

[Dave Neal]

Yeah, I forgot Tony Buzolich has one too! :lol:

They are indeed quite beautiful, especially when all "lit up" and excited.

I like the fact that it's not just trout in avatars... I like the good ol' merican BASS avatar of Mr. Bill Kiene.

[Dave Neal]

Oh, and I forgot to add...another water now closed to fishing etc. is Haiwee Reservoir down round Lone Pine CA. But not closed from Quagga's, Zebra's, NZMS etc...No...it was closed because of TERRORIST POTENTIAL.

Yep, it's the last major holding of water before the LA Aqueduct and LADWP closed it to all recreation (I think last year?) for fear of some terrorist opportunity (poisoning, perhaps??) There are not a lot of locals in Lone Pine, Big Pine, Olancha etc. so other than a hand full of pissed off locals it was pretty easy for them to shut it down.

I also heard from a DWP biologist that LADWP was going to close off a lot of road access to the Owens Lake (the same one that is being re-watered) because some DWP workers heard "close" gunfire this fall during waterfowl season. Likely miles away, but being non-hunters they did not realize it was miles away...the killing range for a shotgun (for birds) is only about 40 yards +/-. Anyway, the newly rewatered LORP and portions of the "dry" lake have quickly rebounded to be quite the waterfowl area...word was over 1.5 million birds were flocking there this fall/winter.

Anyway, that's two more waterways that (are) will be closed to all access.

[Darian]

Welllll,.... Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean we're not out to get 'em.... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It sure seems like the LA Metro Water District has it in for the people in the Owens valley. Back in my college days, I used to do some prospecting with a buddy of mine around Keeler (on the east side of the lake bed). We explored every abandoned mine in the area (Cerro Gordo, etc.)

Also, used to shoot geese by lying on the ground in the lake bed/cover with a white sheet and pop up when they flew over. Not very good shooting but it was OK. It was very cold. So, we'd head for "dirty socks" for a hot dip (buck naked :shock: :shock: ) before heading home. Really good times.... :D :D

MWD tried to dry up Mono lake by de-watering Rush Creek until somebody sued them for sustained water flows and won. :) :)

[Dave Neal]

Yeah, the history between the Owens Valley & Long Valley residents and the LADWP is very interesting to say the least. A great book on the subject is "Cadillac Desert" and of course the Jack Nicholson movie..."Chinatown"

But, in all honesty the relationship NOW with LADWP is a double edge sword. LADWP is the largest private owner/controller of land and water rights in the eastern Sierra...Mono & Inyo Counties...BUT they do allow FREE public access for fishing, hunting, birding, rock climbing etc etc.

They virtually own all of our best fishing streams...Upper Owens (except a few other private ranches) Crowley Lake, Owens Gorge, Lower Owens, Pleasant Valley Res...if these lands where still in ranchers hands we may not have a lot of public fishing access. It is crazy to think about all the wrongs and how it ended up so right...as far as recreation in the current day.

Sorry for the major thread drift!

[Darian]

Just in time to emphasize the point about the potential negative affects of the policy of exclusion (reduction of revenues thru potential loss of sales being one), there's a post on Blanton's BB about deciding whether to buy a boat considering the high cost of gas, closures and potential closures of fisheries (fresh and salt water) in this state.

If you're a person who has some discretionary income, will you get something out of your investment, do you buy or not :?: :?: :?:....

It hadda happen sooner or later.... :roll: :roll: :roll: