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View Full Version : A bright future ??



David Lee
02-12-2008, 02:40 PM
I doubt it .

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23130256/wid=18298287

The damming of the Colorado already destroyed the upper Sea of Cortez (along with overfishing) - now 22 million are likely going to go without water unless something drastic happens .

Why build in the desert ????

David :(

Scott V
02-12-2008, 03:24 PM
Who would have thought that gamblng would take so much water. I know when I gamble I prefer whiskey. :lol:

mike N
02-12-2008, 03:33 PM
Why build in the desert? Because we can, and we can be comfortable living there, too.

We are victims of technological advancements.

http://www.oldhouseweb.com/stories/Detailed/725.shtml

MN

Darian
02-12-2008, 03:56 PM
Hmmmm,.... Another bit of info for the pot. I mentioned water usage in the southwest earlier in this Forum under the topic of Water Usage. t seems that, in addition to those culprits already cited, we have to blame golf courses and their use of water to keep those courses green.

When you take into account that surface water supplies are dwindling and groundwater pumping is used to offset losses form surface supplies, it doesn't take a great imagination to see where all of this is going. :? :?

Scott V
02-12-2008, 04:33 PM
[quote="Darian"] we have to blame golf courses and their use of water to keep those courses green.[quote]

Golf courses in Las Vegas use recycled water and then that recycled water goes back into the sytstem for irrigation in other places. They are required to have an incredible water recycling system. It is state of the art. I saw an hour long special on the water managment on golf courses in Las Vegas and I was very impressed with the technology. So do not put the blame on the golf courses.

Bill Kiene semi-retired
02-12-2008, 07:37 PM
I read somewhere (back when we were in a drought cycle) that 80% of water usage is agriculture and industry and 20% is residential.

I thought it was funny that they are so concerned about us flushing our toilets and watering our lawns?

I think it's time to take a serious look at subsidized agriculture.

Nobody is subsidizing my small business. I have to make it or go bust on my own.

BigBill
02-13-2008, 11:03 AM
[quote="Darian"] we have to blame golf courses and their use of water to keep those courses green.[quote]

Golf courses in Las Vegas use recycled water and then that recycled water goes back into the sytstem for irrigation in other places. They are required to have an incredible water recycling system. It is state of the art. I saw an hour long special on the water managment on golf courses in Las Vegas and I was very impressed with the technology. So do not put the blame on the golf courses.

It's not just Vegas though. What about golf courses elsewhere along the path of the Colorado diverting water? There are more golf courses in California than there are rivers. Heck there are 5 golf courses here in South Lake Tahoe and we have a population of around 30,000! And I know they aren't on a stringent water management system as you've described. I definitely put a lot of blame on the golf courses!

Also, here in Stateline, we don't even have our water metered! You pay a flat fee regardless of use. So in the Summer months our neighbors water their lawns 3-4 times in a 24hr period. Frustrates me beyond belief.

Bill Kiene semi-retired
02-13-2008, 11:21 AM
I once read that another big problem with all those reservoirs on the Colorado River is that they have excessive evaporation because of their warm sunny climate.

Darian
02-13-2008, 01:26 PM
Soooo,.... Lets see here. It's OK to take water from a river that is facing water deficits for irrigation of golf courses because that water is recycled.... Why not leave the water in the river/stream for a higher usage???

I wonder what the Navajos, Hopis, Zunis and other pueblo people who live in the four corners area would have to say about this subject????.... I've read about the water system in Las Vegas, too. I'm a big fan of recycling. However, when you consider that there're approximately 200 golf courses in the Arizona/Nevada area and that they're located in one of the most arid climates in the world, recycling is kind of a hollow excuse for poor water usage.

I'm not a golfer so I can say that I think using water to for irrigating golf courses is a colossal waste of resources when we're facing water shortages throughout the west. The sheer numbers of courses offset recycling as the initial water supply has to come from existing surface or groundwater supplies. Even recycling won't offset evaporation.... :? :?

BigBill is correct about our own use of water. Just imagine how many golf courses are located in California..... :? :?

Scott V
02-13-2008, 02:55 PM
The majority of golf courses use recycled water that is not able to be used for human consumption. Plus they also use special grasses that are drought tolerant. Just because the grass is green do not think that golf courses are wasting water. Do some reading on the rules and regulations that golf courses have to follow in order to keep there license. Yes there are some courses that do not follow these rules, but the majority of them have strict guidlines the abide by. If the rest of the world had the same guidlines that golf courses have there would be more water.

If you want to see a real waste of water, go check out the rice fields, they are on the list of worst offenders in California.

And yes I am a golfer.

Darian
02-13-2008, 10:31 PM
Scott,.... You're missing the point here. First, water has to be taken from a source, somewhere, to be used at all (whether for human or other consumption). After that it may or may not be recycled.... But, it still has to made available.

Next, whether we all recycle or follow golf course rules or not, there's only 100% of water available from ground and surface water sources. So, recycling won't increase the water supply available from those sources for development in the desert. It just creates more re-uses for water (not necessarily a bad thing). Most of the irrigation systems on golf courses I've seen aren't overly efficient, either. So there's got to be a bunch of evaporation.

You and I are not going to agree on this and, as I said, water for golf courses in the desert (recycled or not) is a bad choice (....even tho you or I don't get to make it). Think about the implications for the Colorado River of making the choice to continue urban develop in places like Las Vegas.... Golf courses are a downstream result of urban development.... And, if we can believe what was said in the article (above), the impact of that type of development on the Colorado River will be to eventually de-water the river and dry up Lake Mead. Re-cycling on that scale would help but probably not be reasonable until crisis need drives us to make it happen. So, that choice would have massive, negative impacts on Downstream activities (SoCal, Arizona and Northern Mexican areas....) not to mention the loss of a lot hydroelectric power generation for California. :( :(

My vote is that we use water for the greens, no fairways and golfers should learn to play from the rough (like they do in Europe....) 8) 8)

BigBill
02-14-2008, 10:13 AM
I'm a bit of a golfer myself Scott. So maybe my argument makes me a hypocrite. But I am seriously considering giving up golf because of the impact I feel it has on our fisheries.

This last summer it seemed like every time I drove past the Edgewood golf course here in Tahoe they had the sprinklers going somewhere. Bijou is the only course in town that doesn't constantly run their sprinklers and you can tell by all the brownish/yellow grass and dirt poking through!

HC
02-14-2008, 06:39 PM
Why build in the desert ???? David, Mike Darian permit me to blow off a little steam here. Bugsy Segal, Meyer Lansky and other westcoast Mobbies, being crooked but optimistic learned that certain counties in Neveda did not prohibit gambling and prostitution as did other states and saw opportunities for easy money. Now if Florida, a watery place, had the same legal position as Neveda, then the mob would have happily put their casinos there after they were booted out of Havana. Of course, for Floridians, this would have caused the usual growth problems we are familiar with; corruption, pollution, over crowding and so on. So Neveda's favorable political and legal stance toward gambling was the catalyst that kicked off this monster we call Las Vegas and for its ever growing thirst for water. To make it worse, add in Barry Goldwater, the driving force for damning the Colorado in order to bring water to the SW, you get growth with things like Del Webb, retirees, and copius golf courses all throughout and a place that could reasonablely accomodate a few hundred thousand people is now unwilling host to millions. Its all built on a very suspect and artificial foundation which everyone knows rainfall can not be legislated. So now we have fake environment of greenery which couldn't be had without serious water manipulations. Now the snow birds look out the window see grass instead of rock and sand all the time. In a simiar way Califronia is heading for a giant water shortfall as well and no matter how you take it apart its really to few resources shared by too many users. In other words we have overburdened our environmental capacity to sustain the amount of folks we now have here in the west. What was the question? Sorry for the single minded rant of my narrow minded views. Although, come to think of it the 3 things my Scottish ancestors, yes both sides, are credited with are good drinkin' whiskey, fly fishing and golf, and are mostly unconquerable endevors. But they are compatible as you can flyfish in golf ponds and slosh a round of scotch while you are at it, very nice acccccctually.

Darian
02-14-2008, 07:36 PM
Harley,.... Great rant.... Even the Scot's play golf on a course that doesn't have manicured fairways.... 8) 8) Also, I think the water crisis you see in our future is happening right now. :( :( :(

We share common ancestry. I'm, also, a Scot. Altho, I'm sort of a falling away type as I don't drink Scotch. My weakness is for Irish Whiskey. Close in origin tho.... 8) 8) 8)

Hairstacker
02-14-2008, 11:26 PM
Ha, I'm also of Scottish origin but I didn't know they were credited for fly fishing. 8) I like single malt Scotch but does this mean I have to take up golf?!? :lol:

David Lee
02-14-2008, 11:31 PM
Ha, I'm also of Scottish origin ........ does this mean I have to take up golf?!? :lol:

No . It means you have to wear knickers (or whatever the hell those golf-pants are called) .

Just kidding .

David :smirk:

Hairstacker
02-14-2008, 11:37 PM
Knickers, eh? :unibrow:

:lol: