installing loops

[HC]

Well, it's mid-winter now so there is time for tackle question or two. For those of you who hunt stripers and find the need to change lines or heads frequently, you might just be putting braided loops on you lines. How do you all tie your braided loops to your line ends? My method is to stuff the line into the 50# looped hollow braid and then tie it in using two 9 turn nail knots near the base of the braid. I put a small drop of super glue on each knot and another drop where the line tip enters the doubled braid. I have had no failures yet, but it has not been tested on giant fish! Maybe I could use the niebors dog? Also, is anyone putting loops on amnesia? I have put 35# braided loops on 30# Amnesia too, but fear maybe it could pull off at the wrong time, but I have given it a good tug test with no failure. Let us know your methods and results you have had, good or bad. Cheers, Harley

[David Lee]

Hi Harley !! Hope all is well .....

This is the method I use -

http://www.danblanton.com/gettinglooped.html

As long as the line goes into the inner braided sleeve .... it'll hold fine .

I finish the Braid/line splice by wrapping it w/ flat waxed nylon thread , then coating the thread w/ plyobond . Sometimes , I add a nail knot , sometimes not .

I haven't had one slip yet .

David :D

[Darian]

I've been using braided loop connectors in Baja and the Delta for several years without a failure (yet :?: :lol: ) I started using the method described on Blantons BB and learned a minor modification from Jay Murakoshi that, IMHO, makes the loop bomb proof. :nod:

In constructing the loop itself, a splicing tool is inserted into the end of the braid and forced out thru the side of the braid at the desired point. The other end is then caught by the splicing tool and pulled into the braid until it is pulled all the way out of the outer braid. Then insert the end of the line into the braid and pull the loop back until the end of the line is near the "Y" of the loop. 8) Then tie the end of the braid down with a nail knot(s), coat with PlioBond (flexibility), let dry and you're ready to go. :D

Not sure, but, I think the addition of the CA adhesive to the loop area of the braid cancels out the stretch that grabs the line.... (sorta like the Chinese finger toy :? :? ). Also, I try not to use CA glue on anything that will receive a shock during use as it tends to become brittle/crystallize over time.... :(

I've tried several different variations of the braided loop mantra but found the one described is best and quickest for me.... :D :D

[jbird]

For the amnesia, try just tying a clinch knot with it to the back loop of your head. It goes through the guides easy if you clip the tag close. Its a snap to clip it and retie when changing heads. I wouldnt trust a braided loop on amnesia or slick shooter etc.

Jay

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

David,
We too recommend the method on Dan's BB.

Darian,
I want you to show the method you described (that Jay showed you) to Andy and Jim at the shop some day.

Jbird,
Al Perryman uses that same clinch knot with Amnesia to the loop on the back end of the shooting head for many years now too.

Thanks for all the good responses.

Maybe we can have a "rigging workshop" on a Saturday at our fly shop?

[Tony Buzolich]

Several good points have been brought up. Dan's article about getting looped is by far the best. As for a double nine turn nail knot, this may be a little overkill. A single seven turn is adequate unless going big game saltwater. The key here is to only tie off at the end of the braid and let the finger puzzle work. Also, I NEVER use "CA" type super glues. As Darian pointed out super glues (or any glue or finish) that dries fast will always be BRITTLE. You DON'T want anything brittle on a line or a knot.
Using a slower drying glue like Pliobond or fleximent or any urethane based coating allows the knot and the loop to remain pliable. SOFTEX is another good pliable coating. DON'T make things brittle here.

As for the Amnesia, realize that this line is SOLID. It's a monofilament. In order for loops to work well they must compress to some degree at the nail knot while allowing the rest of the braid to move and squeeze the soft outer coating of the head or the running line. Amnesia won't squeeze or compress allowing the braid to work. A small clinch or loop knot tied in itself would probably be better than braid on mono.
TONY

[HC]

First, Thanks to all for your responses they were exactly what I wanted, Tony, I used CA glue for its penetration properties, and very sparingly. But, now I see it can do harm, so no more. As far as two nail knots go I look at it the way a sky diver looks at having a spare 'chute, If you have a failure then it becomes really important, and its really cheap insurance, but then to each his or her own way. I may be a bit of a black sheep here concerning looping the mono runners, like Amnesia, I am not ready to give up yet. I have a few ideas to try, and I need to make a tensile tester and have at it then decide what works best. Also, Darian mentioned Jay's version of the "loop", I would like to see it tied. Bill, Let us know when it happens at the shop. David I wrap the ends of the braid as well, just like you do. Harley

[Darian]

Carl,.... I was a little confused by Tony's comment at the end of his post, too. I wonder if he meant something different.... :? :?

As to the need for multiple nail knots, to each his own. However, if more than one knot is used, they should be tied close to each other and at the end of the braid. If tied apart, the knot tied closest to the loop end will cancel out the effectiveness of the other. I'm, also, not sure that a second knot will provide additional security. IMHO most of the failures using this type of loop connector occur because the line covering separates from the core (assuming all knots are tied correctly) and the braided loop slips off as a result. Again IMHO, I don't believe that a second knot will hold any better than the first.....

Altho, I haven't tried Max Garth's co-axial loop, I've been told it's very reliable. Maybe I'll give that one a shot next. 8) 8)

[jbird]

the knot tied closest to the loop end will cancel out the effectiveness of the other. I'm, also, not sure that a second knot will provide additional security

Darian. Very well said. That is exaxtly right. The braided mono MUST stretch to effectively bite onto the line. If you have two nail knots seperated by any distance at all, the braided mono will not be allowed to stretch and grab.

Jay

[Tony Buzolich]

Carl,

Whose arguing anything? I'm certainly not. I've known Bill Nash for quite a few years as a friend and have the greatest respect for him and his knot-sense. What he does with his amnesia or how he does it, I have no idea. That doesn't mean I'm arguing anything. I'm simply agreeing with jbird about keeping the knot small allowing ease of passage through the guides.
TONY

[HC]

Darian, I don't think banket statements apply here, grin, unlesss you know exactly how the other person goes about forming and placing the loops and knots on the line and braid. There are plenty of variables. For example, if I place my 14 inch braid + loop on the fly line and place one nail knot at the base of the braid, and a second NK an inch up the braid, the arrangement leaves 13 inches of braid above the second NK to do the stretch, shrink and grab business. Under strain its the second NK that is subjected to tensile strain, not the first NK at the base. Under failure of the second NK as you described, (cover slip), strain is shifted to the first nail knot, which will hold 'til strain is relieved. But 'til the first NK does fail you are stilll connected to your rig via the braid and you have a second chance to recover your fish, line and so on. The way I think it works is that a stress failure will occur right at the clinch point of the second NK because that is the point where there is no give or further stretch available and is the reason why the cover serarates from the line core by accumulated strain transition. This assumes good tight nail knots are placed. I hope this helps you understand my reasoning. Harley

[Darian]

Harley,.... I understand what you're saying.... I just don't agree with the basis for your statement of the problem.... Not an expert but I'm not sure there should be much stress on the second knot unless the first fails. The first knot is supported by the braids grip on the tip of the fly line. IMHO, without that gripping action, your idea becomes more likely. To me, the second knot is overkill but there're others who feel as you do....

If you feel that the second knot is necessary, so be it. 8) 8) I haven't experienced any failures on my set-up and had a bunch of "hard pullers" on in Baja while using it. Maybe I'll reconsider, in the future, if I do have a failure.

As I said in my prior post, "to each his own". :wink: :wink: :wink:

[HC]

Hey No problema, Your opinion is as valid as anyone elses thats the fun of it all. But for me the second nail knot is so easy to tie on that is certainly not over kill any more having a spare tire. Anyway now I have some testing to do to find where failures are likely to occur and if that second knot is necessary. I plan to check Bill Nash system as well for loopinhg mono shooting lines. Anyway, I think all the testing is not much more than proving that the leader should act as the fail safe, not the loop. Best, Harley PS You guys did not disappoint.

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... After thinking about this subject, I wonder how many of us check the mono nail knots on our braided loops after installation and at what interval :?: :?: Another question, for me, is does anyone here use a thread material (Spectra, etc.) for the nail knot rather than mono :?: :?:

Seems like using something like Spectra to tie the nail knot would make a flexible/strong (....tensile strength) and neater knot. Anyone see any difficulties with this idea :?: :?: :?:

[Jay Murakoshi]

Bill/Darian,

Now that we are on the subject of braided loops. I'm sitting here and making up a bunch for the upcoming baja trips. Let's see, it's around 1:30am, can't sleep. I'm also editing and working on the DVD and working on the Baja papers.

A note of interest...... The last couple days, I have been thinking about adding a fly tying page to my web site. There will be some of the patterns I tie and patterns from others. But, I will have a step by step tying photo's and tying captions under the photo's. All I have to do is sit down and figure out how to make each pattern on a separate page and have a link to each particular pattern. This will definitely take some time to shoot the photo's and paste them to a page. I already have the templates.

What's you're opinion

Jay

[Jay Murakoshi]

Opps, I forgot.... I was going to mention that if I can find some time, I'll do a short Quick time movie on how I make my braided loops. It's not hard to do the loops.

Jay

[Darian]

Hi Jay,..... I'm up for it.... :D :D Fly tying on your website would be really interesting and informative. :) :) When do you have time to do all of the "stuff" you do :?: :?

Maybe you should consider writing a book.... 8) 8) (....big initial investment, less maintenance :D :D )

[Hairstacker]

I too use the method described on Blanton's website. I put one 9-turn nail knot on at the base and put a drop of superglue on it. I would expect the fly line to break before one of these loop setups do.

[HC]

Jay, Your ideas are good. Fly tieing from a master is hard to beat. I can't wait to see you video. Harley

[Adam Grace]

I like to use 8lb fluorocarbon to nail-knot off my loops, then I coat the nail-knot in Loon's UV Knotsense which creates a smooth bubble/coating over the knot that will slide through the rod's guides easier than a super-glued knot.

[Adam Grace]

Carl, I'm not sure if it makes a difference but I "feel' more comfortable with using the fluoro, it's UV resistant and generally tougher than mono.

[Hairstacker]

Carl, that's a great suggestion regarding the pliobond and hard as nails, thanks! I also like Adam's idea of using Loon's UV Knotsense.