Jig hooks....

[Darian]

I'm interested in finding out if there's a significant difference between the 60 degree jig hook, Eagle Claw model 413, and the similar jig hook manufactured by Mustad (I don't have the model number on this hook). I've seen both on the rack at bait shops and they look almost identical. :? :? Anyone have any experience with these hook :?: :?:

I've been tying some of my Striper flies on the EC 413 but I don't have a lot of confidence in EC brand hooks. Over the course of the years, I've had many of them break or bend. :( :( I have a lot more confidence in Mustad brand hooks for economical usage and am considering dropping the EC hooks over the side. 8) 8)

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Hi Darian

We have some Gamakatsu jig hooks that are a little more $ than the EC 413 in bronze with a sharp point.

Let me know what the number is on those Mustads and I will get some in.

[Darian]

Hi Bill,.... I've been trying to find the Mustad hook in a couple of catalogues (for the model number) and haven't seen them in anyones inventory. Now, I'm wondering if the Mustad hook wasn't discontinued and what I've seen on the shelves just haven't been sold yet.... :? :? :?

Gotta go find some and get the model number from the box. 8) 8)

[Jay Murakoshi]

Darian,

Are you looking at the sixty degree or thirty degree Mustad. I have the thirty. I have the 30 degree Mustads and the 60 degree Gamakatsu. I stay away from tying on the EC 413. Just my opinion but then again, I still use the "J" hook. I sell my flies tied on the standard hook or the jig hook whatever the customer wants.

Jay

[Matt Frey]

Hi Darian,
I seem to recall a post by Mike McKenzie a while back complaining about the EC413 as well. I believe he uses the Owner 5317 jig hooks. You may want to check those out.
Take it easy
Matt

[Jay Murakoshi]

Darian/Bill,

I think the Mustad # is 34184.

Jay

[Darian]

Thanks for all of the info. It seems that my suspicions about the EC hook are justified. 8)

I have Gamakatsu jig hooks and some Mustad 30 degree jig hooks, already but find the Gammies are too expensive.... Probably, the Owners are, as well. :-({|= :-({|=

Anyway, I ttied up a variation fo a fly tied on a jig hook by Dave Sellers and posted on Blanton's BB. It's tied with a tail like a Rasta pattern but has a body/wing similar to a Hollow Fly and a Sea Habit head. 8) 8)

Following is a photo:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o31/jockscot/Photo5.jpg

This one is tied on an EC 413 hook.... :roll: :roll:

[Jay Murakoshi]

Darian,

The hook is the cheapest part of the trp :D

Jay

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Darian,

Very sexy tie............an photo.

[Darian]

Jay,.... You're exactly right about the hook being the cheapest part of a trip. I use the best quality hooks for all saltwater trips after feeling/seeing how those fish pull. :shock: :shock:

Bill,.... My photo's leave a bunch to be desired as I don't use a regular camera. I've been using the camera built into my MacBookPro laptop computer. I've found that no matter how I edit them, when the photo's are uploaded to Photobucket, they appear unchanged. Soooo,.... It leaves a bit to be desired for clarity/colors, etc. For example, there's a black band painted on the end of the tail that is barely visible (like the tail on a Black Bass) :? :?

Sure is easy/convenient to use, tho. 8) 8)

[Hairstacker]

Darian, that's a great-looking fly! Did you weight that one towards the rear to give it that darting motion you talked about? What material is that white stuff extending out the back? How long is it overall? I'll be very interested in hearing how it fishes, as it looks really good. I think the largemouths will love it. :D

[Darian]

Thanks for the compliment Mike. This particular pattern hasn't been weighted, yet. I was trying to get some proportions correct. The materials in the tail are super hair (white/chartreuse) with some flash. The balance is bucktail. The overall length of the fly is around 6".

I'm still trying to decide whether to weight the fly as Dave Sellers did (rear weighted) or use some heavy rattles in the same area. Lotsa options to play with here. This pattern is versatile and has application in Baja as well as for Stripers/Black Bass here. It can easily be adapted to a "J" hook as well.

Now that I have some idea of how the pattern ties up, it's on with the creative madness.... :evil: :evil: :evil:

[koffler]

I've seen some comments inferring there is a problem with the eagle claw jig hook. What are the perceived issues with this hook?

[Darian]

Koffler,.... IMHO, as I said above, I've experienced bending or breakage of Eagle claw brand hooks over the years. That includes models 1197, 1197N and 1197G. They look great and fish well as long as they're not involved in being pulled on; either by large fish (fresh or salt water species). :? :? That hasn't contributed in making me confident in them. :( :( There was a mention of another who had expressed the same concern.

I'm sure others haven't had the same experience with EC hooks. So, that's why I asked the question about any whther there were any significant differences between the EC jig hook and any similar jig hook. 8) 8) Got anything to add :?: :?: :?:

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I lost a very large Striper this Spring with guide Shane Harden up near Colusa on the Sacramento River.

He had another client loose a big one the next week.

I believe both were EC 413 #3/0 hooks that opened up.

[Darian]

OK,.... More on Jig Hooks. Jay is correct. The model number of the Mustad jig hook is 34184D. This hook appears to be similar to the EC 413 jig hook. 8) 8) While looking for this hook, I discovered another jig hook produced by Mustad. This "Ultra Point" hook (also a jig hook) is model number 32746BLN. This model is a 60 degree, bronzed finish and round bend hook. 8)

Unfortunately, when looking at the boxes of hooks, I noticed the other boxes labeled as the same brand, model were not the same model or size of hook.... An apparent mislabeling at the manufacturer. :( :( (Now, I'm wondering what the correct model number is :?: :? :? ) Makes it difficult to order hooks and a minor problem for retailers like Bill. :? :? :? Running a fly shop is no place for wimps.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Jay Murakoshi]

Darian,

There's a Mustad 32786 BLN or 32786 BR. I think these two models are with ultrapoints. Not sure.

Jay

[Darian]

Jay,.... Glad you're still watching this.... If one of the model numbers you listed is a 30 degree jig hook, I think I have some of them. My next effort is going to involve using one of them. Still trying to decide how to weight the fly in the rear (....past the bend of the hook) to create the darting action described by Dave Sellers in his concoction. :? :lol:

I've sketched out a method of wrapping lead wire around a bent spinner wire and then tying the spinner wire to the hook. Not impressed with this method but it haven't eliminated it, yet. Then I envisioned placing a metal bullet head on the spinner wire but am a little concerned that the bullet head will be too much weight. Finally, I thought about a couple of metal beads on the spinner wire for some noise (maybe....) and weight in combination. Same concern about too much weight. :? :? :?

Thought about using some rattles but think they have air trapped in them and it might make the fly tend to rise up. Trying to make the fly sink on a level profile. 8) 8) When I get this going, I'll try to post a couple of pic's showing the chosen weight solution. Gotta start tying. Actually, this has become fun/interesting. :) :)

[Jay Murakoshi]

Darian,

The model hooks I posted were 60 degree bend hooks. The model number for the thirty is 32886 BLN

I've sold alot of clousers tied on this hook. Trying to get some tied up for the shows but can't keep them in stock. I"m also tying up some diving bill bugs, more dalbergs and a bunch of sea habits for the shows.

Can't wait to see your creation

Jay

[Darian]

OK guys,.... This is the latest iteration of the fly shown earlier....

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o31/jockscot/MyPicture-16.jpg

This pattern is similar in design as the fly in the prior photo. It is tied on a 30 degree jig hook and is weighted towards the rear and below the hook. It has only one section of bucktail tied in reversed as in a Hollow Fly (the mid-section). 8) I found the full body tied in that fashion was too bulky. :? :?

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o31/jockscot/MyPicture-15.jpg

This is a front view of the fly showing the circular, wide profile.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o31/jockscot/MyPicture-14.jpg

This a view from the rear of the fly showing the placement of the weight.

The following pic shows how the spinner wire is bent to form the shaft and weight for tying into the pattern. The weight may take the form of beads, metal worm heads or the shaft may be wrapped with lead wire.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o31/jockscot/MyPicture-1-1.jpg

This pattern is still evolving but I'm pleased with the weighting system for tying purposes. Haven't tested how it tracks in the water yet but that will come soon. 8) 8) 8)

[Matt Frey]

That weighting is really interesting. How are you attaching that to the hook? Be sure to keep us posted in how it works.

[Darian]

The system is tied in to the shank of the hook so that portion of the spinner wire not holding the weight is attached on the belly of the fly. It's positioned so that the weight is at or slightly behind the bend of the hook. 8)

In the pattern shown, I tied in the tail on the shank of the hook (at the bend) and then tied in and cemented the spinner wire. The weight is above the tail at that point. It looks like it might swing from side to side but actually doesn't. 8) 8) The materials tied into the body/wing tend to keep the wire oriented correctly. The only problem I'm seeing, right now, is that the travel of the beads or rattles is hindered (won't rattle) by the same materials. :? :? That might be solved by using the technique of wrapping lead wire around the spinner wire rather than using rattles, etc. 8) 8) I'll take a photo of the tying process where I tie in the weight and post it later. 8) 8)

[Dave Sellers]

Hi Darian,

Nice Fly and I particularly like the variant with the wire and two cone heads. I've tried this before but used a bead in between the cones to get the the cone heads to really rattle. Marcus Schroers suggested this to me. It works great..........until you catch a fish! Most wires bend easily preventing the heads and bead from sliding. You can use hardened stainless which is really tough to bend. Cutting up a long shank from a seperate stainless hook will do the trick (but it's not cheap). Also, you can put a little bend on the hook shank you are using for your "rattle" or just cut the hook at the bend leaving a little tiny bit of the bend preventing the cone head from slipping off the end. Hope that makes sense. Tyger wire is another wire that will work for multiple cones and beads. Tie a knot in the end of the Tyger wire, slip the cone on, pot the knot with epoxy and the cone head will stay put (Steve Cali showed me this), string on a bead and second cone head. Works great and looks cool! But there is a catch to beads and cones.........the material needed to get the best action on this fly needs to be VERY limp. Limp, flowy material gets in the way of free movement of the cones and beads! The use of large rattles is ultimately the best way to get rear weighting and a rattle albeit such an uncreative solution.............darn.


Noticed the Rasta Fly touch on your fly..........that was a creative adaption added to this pattern by Steve Cali. Good for you for noticing a good thing when you see it! The trick with Steve's variation is to go sparse. Stiff material or too much material will prevent free movement. My favorite materials for free movement of the flies "tail" are Lefty's Deceiver hackles or Craft fur, or Puglisi hair (sparse). For the body, marabou or palmered cross cut rabbit fur (ala Dan Blanton's rabbits foot) or Craft fur palmered ala Lee Haskin and Charlie Bisharat really allow for lots of movement..............or????????????(your variation here!)

Regarding jig hooks, there is something that I've found using both the Gami and the Mustad jig hooks. That is that they ARE stronger than the 413 but they will still bend with less pressure than a standard J hook. The jig bend forces extra leverage on the hook. If you are bored some time, try comparing the "bending poing" of a jig hook to J hook. Particularly, compare how the jig hook bends when it "point sticks". You can do this by attaching a piece of 50lb mono to the hook, place the hook point on a cinder block or similar and pull the line with a boga. You'll be amazed at how quickly even the Gami or Mustad bends compared with a medium to short shank J hook. This is why I think the Jig hook would be a lousey hook for Tarpon (knowing what little I do about tarpon and their rock hard mouths). Anyway, just wanted to make the point that I think inherent in jig hooks is both the ability hook up better and also the ability to open up easier when a fish is point stuck regardless of the brand (although, again the 413 is the softest metal for sure).

Dave

[Darian]

Hi Dave,.... Thanks for your input/suggestions on this. Was hoping you would notice this and participate. I must've re-read your posts on Blanton's BB a dozen times before they moved to archive and the photo's were lost.... I sure do appreciate your suggestions and will try a couple of 'em in the next iteration.

I chose to use the spinner wire for the shaft on this as it is easily bent back into place after being bent up by fish (hopefully). I'll have to reconsider my choice.

My intended use for these patterns is for Delta Black Bass and Stripers. I'll probably tie them up from 3" to 7"; all with the black border on the tail. Been looking at a lot of Black Bass minnows in Rancho Seco. They all have the black border.

I haven't had a chance to put the fly in the water, yet, but imagine I'll be in for some changes after I do.

I do tie a bunch of flies for Saltwater in Baja using "J" hooks exclusively. Mainly Sea Habit types and Clousers. My hook of choice is the Gamakatsu SC 15. Not sure I'd want to tangle with those hard pullers on a jig hook.

Anyway, thanks again for the input. :D :D

[Hairstacker]

Dave, glad to see you pipe in here, as I'm also very interested in your thoughts on these matters as well. As you may or may not be aware, I've been tying some flies largely inspired by one you posted on Blanton's board and have enjoyed some good success with them. Like to take this opportunity to say, "Thank You!!!" for sharing that fly. I incorporated your suggestion of a rabbit strip for the body, and I now consider one of them my "go-to" fly for subsurface largemouth bass fishing. :D

[Dave Sellers]

Darian and Hairstacker,

Glad you are enjoying the fly. Rear weighting a fly is fun because it's not limited to one pattern, it's a technique that will cause unusual side to side action in almost any pattern. It's only limitation is that weight is used to create this action so it's tough to get a rear weighted fly to hover or float...........but it can be done! My primary interest in rear weighting a fly is ofcourse to get that side to side action that I knew would be killer the first time my friend Mark Susinno showed it to me on a super fluke lure during a trip back east. But also, I hope that rear weighting a fly will become popular because it's a technique that forces a hook to ride point up. George Glazener of Texas made this a lot easier by introducing the Jig Hook to fly fishing. Jig hooks are more easily "convinced" to ride hook up requiring less weight to force keel down. Hook up patterns, simply put, save fish. A skilled fly angler can hook one hell of a lot of fish and if hook down patterns are used the chances of gill hooking go WAY up. Rear weighting, just like the Clouser eye weighting reduce the chances of gill hooking.

Steve Cali has really gotten into this fly tying technique and he is frankly the best saltwater fly tyer I know. His flies are beyond beautiful and he also knows hundreds of techniques for applying materials to a hook shank. I think you picked up on some of these Darian and you are smart to incorporate them into your tie. Regardless, there are unlimited techniques and fly tying styles that can be applied to rear weighted flies. For black bass, my current favorite is a variant of John Barr's "Meat Whistle" (either the best or worst fly name in the world, I'm not sure yet). Anyway this is a killer smallmouth pattern (at Lake Almanor at least) and I'm sure it will work on largemouth as well. I use an olive marabou tail instead of rabbit strip and I use a barred olive and tan rabbit strip palmered for the body, a few rubber legs, a little crystal flash and that's it.

All this said, I'm NOT a fly guy. I love tying flies but I do not think that flies matter that much, that is until they matter a lot! The side to side action can make a huge difference but that is often the exception, not the rule. Ron Dong's crease fly for example has built into it's design the walk the dog action that really does make a difference.....at times. I've seen it dramatically outperform other fly patterns in the surf for big bass. But then recent new patterns emerge in our region for basically the same application and they range from innovative to bizarre and they also catch big bass on top. Why? Because they are the fly presented, that's why! I don't want to take anything away from the creative tyer, myself included but I have no illusions that fly fishermen using a rear weighted fly are largely successful with it because it may be tied in the right size and color and presented to the fish at the correct depth and with the right retreive, not because it's rear weighted. But heck, it's an incredibly fun fly to tie, at least to me it is, and one day you may experience what I did at San Luis and Nacimiento and that is that this weighting technique really does outperform other flies...........it certainly can't hurt!

I'll try to get the tying techique for a few patterns up on my website so it'll remain available. And finally, if you have or ever get to the point when you know for certain that this tying technique and the action it creates has really made a difference in catch rate, let me know. I'd love to hear about it!

Dave

[Darian]

Interesting observation about whether a fly is hot because it was in the water when fish would've bit on anything or was the fly the real motivator.... :? :? I guess, like anything else, consistency over the long haul is the real measure of whether a fly is hot or not. 8) 8) Sure is fun to try to hit the mark, tho. :D :D

I've seen some of Steve Cali's flies and agree that they are artistic. I'm a collector and probably will acquire some for my own. However, I never use flies acquired for that purpose. I prefer to make an imitation. That way I won't be so "ticked off" if I lose or destroy them. :lol: :lol:

OK, back to this pattern. Following is a better photo of the completed fly showing the black border on the tail. Having learned the hard way about materials impeding the movement of the beads, the body/tail on the next iteration of this fly will not have as much material tied in.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o31/jockscot/DSCN0191.jpg

The next photo shows how I tied in the frame/shaft for the rattle after tying in the tail.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o31/jockscot/DSCN0193.jpg

Nothing special here. Make sure to build up the tying thread around the area where the wire meets the hook shank. This will help keep the rattle in place. It's important to use CA adhesive during and after tying the wire to the shank of the hook. 8) 8) After reviewing Dave Sellers comments, I believe that this wire will not only bend but be moved by a large fish mouthing the fly. Soooo,.... It looks like I'll be playing with this part of the design for the next iteration, too. :lol: :lol:

[Matt Frey]

Thanks for the picture Darian. Makes a lot more sense to me now. This is a very interesting discussion.

[Steve Cali]

a.

[Darian]

Hi Steve,.... Thanks for the info. I've really had a bunch of fun working on this and getting a chance to pick your and Dave's collective knowledge. 8) 8) I've visited both of your websites and must say I'm impressed with both the artistic abilities of both of you. Great paintings. =D> =D> Unless I'm missing something, I noticed that the photo attachments don't make into archive on Blanton's BB. :? :? I was able to get a very good idea from the posts before they made it into archive tho. 8)

Now that I'm back from L.A., where cold, Santa Ana winds practically blew everything that wasn't nailed down into Santa Monica Bay, I'll be working on the next iteration....

One thing that I've been thinking is that with very little change, the tail of the fly could be divided, the head shaped and it might become something similar to the KDM Rat. :idea: :idea: :lol: :lol: Guess I'm a little punchy after driving back from L.A. today. :roll: :roll:

[Darian]

OK,.... Following is the latest (streamlined) version of this fly pattern. I completed this fly on the hook showing the weight layout in a prior photo. 8)

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o31/jockscot/DSCN0195.jpg

This pic shows the weight thru the belly hair:

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o31/jockscot/DSCN0196.jpg


The fly is tied on a 30 degree jig hook. Weight is added to the rear and in the form of a rattle. The wire chosen was spinner shank wire. I now believe that this wire may be too soft. So, I've decided to use piano wire in either a .025 or .032 thickness. This wire is going to be more difficult to bend but will retain it's shape under stress longer.

In summary, this fly is intended for the Delta or lake fishing for Black and Striped Bass. The pattern is very adaptable and may be tied in with or without weight, various hook styles, colors and bulk or lack of same. One addition to consider is a spinner blade off the front of the hook similar to the Spinster pattern. This flies application could be easily expanded to include saltwater by changing to a "J" hook and elimination or changing of the weighting scheme. :D

I'm still thinking about how to utilize the weighting scheme in other types of patterns to make more warm water patterns for this spring/summer. More to come, later, on this.

This fly is not an original on my part, and I'd like to think that others will take the weighting ideas and expand on them. Thanks to all who contributed to my thoughts on this. 8) 8) 8)

[Tony Buzolich]

Hmmmmmm 8) I'm impressed.

You're getting good with the mix of colors and nice looking heads. Are you epoxying these one of a kind creations or have you gone in to production runs yets? Either way, they look good.

Second question Darian, Why are you using beads mixed with cone heads? Is this for noise or for weight?

Seems to me that colors could go toward "Bluegill" with the addition of that barred tail. I like it.
TONY

[Steve Cali]

Darian,

Very nice! I am pleased that you are having fun with this pattern. Dave's keel weighting has opened up a whole dimension of flies that ride hook up.

Steve Cali

[Darian]

Thanks for the compliments Steve/Tony. Daves idea sure has a lot of merit and versatility to it. Kinda got my "fly tying juices" going again. :D :lol: Gotta try a couple of new applications, now.

Tony,.... As much as I love to tie flies, I'm not sure I'll ever get back into production tying as I tend to get bored. I'm very happy that there're really good commercial tiers out there so I don't have to do it. I'm willing to share the recipe to any of my stuff to anyone who's interested, tho.... :)

The heads are tied in the Sea Habit style (using E-Z Body tubing) and epoxy over. I learned the style from by listening to and observing Jay M. I was really impressed by how durable and realistic it looks and, after tying a bunch of 'em, was able to get some speed into the process (....when my attention span permits :roll: :lol: :lol: )

I chose the combination of weights based on some comments by Dave Sellers about how to incorporate sound (rattles) into the design. These beads/cones are not made of lead. The plastic beads are just spacers and provide some color in the belly area. I've rattled the weights, after completing the fly and they really do make some noise. Gotta see if that works in the water, now. 8) 8)

I agree with you about changing colors to make a bluegill version. Also, change the body profile to vertical (flatter) by going to a high tie body (this fly is round profile). I wouldn't think using a jig hook in a bluegill pattern would work as well as the upper wing might interfere with hooking fish.... Altho, maybe not. :? :? Interesting.... :-k :-k Sounds like another problem needs looking into.... :unibrow: :unibrow:

[Steve Cali]

Darian,

For a bluegill pattern, Jig hook, I tie a Pulglisi style fly and then keel weight it Dave Sellers style.

On my website the SC Threadfin Shad, basically a Puglisi fly, is the fly I tie with a jig hook. Just need to add the photo once I take a photo of my fly.

SC[/img]