Fishing Beads

[wjorg]

I know the last guy who brought this up was banned for making personal attacks. I am making no personal attack.


I just want to bring up the discussion.


Beads are not considered flies because they are not a dressed hook. They are considered lures.

In Alaska, in order to meet Fly Fishing Regulations, a bead can only be fished above a dressed hook in certain waters. The created the Iliamna Fly, or Maggot Fly, aka a hook wrapped with floss, in order to meet these regulations.

It is recommended that Beads should be kept at 1.5 Inches from the hook to minimize fish injuries, and to minimize the change of snagging from the outside of the lip.

Often the trout bites the bead and it stung by the trailing hook on the outside of its face, which leads to an outside the mouth hookset.



Check out the Unreal Egg

[Chris Laskodi]

It is true that beads are not considered flies. But unlike AK, CA only has a few fly-fishing only waters, and none of those are popular areas to use beads/egg patterns. Most are artificial lures with barbless hooks.

To me bead fishing is about responsibility. You rarely hook a fish deep using beads, yes you may hook them outside of the mouth, but you won't hook them deep. Also if you fish barbless you greatly reduce if not eliminate the injuries to the fish's mouth. Most of those badly disfigured fish are due to barbed hooks being ripped out of the fish. In AK the badly disfigured fish, are usually fish that ran into king plugs, which have barbed trebles. I have yet to see a fish in CA that has been disfigured by hook wounds in an area that beads are a commonplace.

Here is what I would consider a badly disfigured fish: Note it is missing most of its maxilla but is otherwise perfectly healthy.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/ctlaskodi/Alaska%202007/9-12/IMGP0504a.jpg

Here is another fish caught on a bead in a less traveled area but where barbed hooks are still present: This fish was caught using a bead with barbless hook.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/ctlaskodi/Alaska%202007/9-11/IMGP0456a.jpg

Glo-bugs are a different story, since they are soft they are taken deep by fish and then get stuck in the gills which leads to a dead fish. I'd rather have a fish with a little disfigured mouth than a dead fish. In CA, it is less of an issue because the egg bite is not as critical as in AK where the trout depend on it.

The reason I fish beads is that I have not deep-hooked a fish using a bead, I also don't want to carry both glo-bugs and beads with me just because one is not a fly. I can carry thousands of beads with me at one time in countless number of colors. Here is one of my bead boxes:
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c162/ctlaskodi/DSCN7280a.jpg

I do agree with Wjorg to keep your bead 1.5 inches from the hook, I don't usually peg mine, but many people do.

I have yet to see a guide in AK that uses glo-bugs, and I know many guides on the Lower Sac use beads. Don't let the fact that because a bead is not a fly, you are a blasphemous fly-fisherman. I still consider myself one even though I use beads.

[AllRiverFishing]

Just a quick observation about not pegging the bead...I always peg mine and use a figure-8 knot to keep it from sliding down onto the hook. 1 1/2 - 2 1/2" is what I aim for from the hook. Just my personal preference... The point is I've noticed that when the peg works loose and the bead slides up the leader the fish will often get hooked as far back as the pec. fin area. Not the best hook placement right? Did the fish take the bead? Absolutely, most likely he inhaled it along with a bucket of water. On the hookset though who knows if that bead was 18" or 8mm from the hook?? Not to mention the possibility of a dropper fly whipping around. When the bead is pegged solid (which it's not 100% of the time no matter how well you pay attention to it), 9 out of 10 fish, even the little bitty ones will be hooked in the corner of the mouth outside-in or vice versa...in the corner of the mouth regardless, even if I were to peg it 4" away. It seems to me there's at least some correlation between bringing in a fish that's hooked way back and the free sliding bead I'm soon thereafter re pegging. Sooo....in my opinion it's a good idea to peg that bead.

[ycflyfisher]

Glo-bugs are a different story, since they are soft they are taken deep by fish and then get stuck in the gills which leads to a dead fish. I'd rather have a fish with a little disfigured mouth than a dead fish.

I've seen several people argue this notion but I can't buy this justification or it's rationale that a "soft" yarn bug seems somehow more realistic to a fish than does a hard bead and is more likely to be taken deep.

I think this notion really has become more of an angler created myth than anything else in regards to salmon roe in the drift (IN CA,never seined roe out of an Alaskan drift) based on what most anglers seem to think drifting roe blasted out of the substrate is like. Most of the roe that gets blasted out of the substrate and into the drift isn't "Pautzkye's Ball's of Fire" soft. Is has more of a texture of a hard but stopping just short of Vulcanized rubber ball. If you press it between you're palms hard you can generally cause some deformation but not nearly as much as most would likely think, but it's very rare that you can pop it without exerting a lot of force. Again there's a great deal of variation in terms of the actual roe's aging and maturity/fertilization. But the vast majority of roe that I've seined out of the drift and had fish spit that wasn't at least partially digested, was a lot closer to feeling like a hard plastic bead than a yard egg in terms of both texture and density.

I can buy the arguement that fish don't tend to ingest beads as deeply as conventional egg patterns based on the real issue is that they have trouble engulfing the mess of tippet and trailing hooks normally associated with beads.

Nor can I buy the notion that fish will tend to ingest glow bugs deeper than the typical nymph pattern all things remaining equal, given the mechanics of how fish ingest items that are on or near a dead drift.

[Bob Laskodi]

Go to Alaska and you will clearly see the difference. In 2006 (the year the following pic was taken) there were around 4 million spawning sockeye & pink salmon in the Kenai, a river about the size of the Lower Sac at Redding. Compare that to a salmon run on the Lower Sac counted in the thousands. You simply do not have this volume of spawn in CA waters. This is a back eddy on the Russian River downstream of a large sockeye spawning area.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/laskodi/JPEGS231a.jpg
Watch a fish root through a redd in AK that contains many, many eggs and you will see them quickly snarf up all sorts of objects, and then discard those that they think are not eggs very quickly. It's a conditioned feeding response to the salmon that will quickly turn on them, try to injure them, and force them off the redds. Fish swallow glo bugs deeply as they are soft like a fresh egg (sockeye eggs are nowhere near as hard as a rubber ball as you stated, you can easily crush them with your fingers), they do not swallow beads deeply as they spit them out as they think they are small pebbles because they are hard. I have never deep hooked a fish in AK using a bead. About 10% of the fish I hooked in AK while fishing globugs were deep hooked to the point of possibly causing significant injury. I estimate that probably around 3-5% of those fish did not survive (just a guess, but that rate is far too high for my tastes). That's why I will no longer fish a globug in AK. Just my observation from fishing AK waters from the 1980's.

[dtp916]

wjorg: How many times have the fish you caught been stung by the hook on the outside of the mouth if you are pegging it 1.5" away?

Zero, or close to it is my guess...

I haven't used beads before, but I hear lots of success stories, few foul hooking stories, and many "elitist" talking crap.

Go swing a green butt skunk and enjoy your day out on the water.

Might I suggest a refreshment?

http://kiene.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=4305

It is what it is.

[wjorg]

wjorg: How many times have the fish you caught been stung by the hook on the outside of the mouth if you are pegging it 1.5" away?

Zero, or close to it is my guess...

I haven't used beads before, but I hear lots of success stories, few foul hooking stories, and many "elitist" talking crap.

Go swing a green butt skunk and enjoy your day out on the water.

Might I suggest a refreshment?

http://kiene.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=4305

It is what it is.


My experiences on stinging fish on the outside of the mouth depend on how many eggs and trout are in the river. The more voraciously they feed on a plethora of eggs, the more inconsistent results I had with beads. I had consistent results with the Unreal Egg...consistent jaw hooksets. Unfortunately, in those conditions the Unreal Egg gets beat to hell.

I experienced this fishing 7 days a week for a few months straight on the Kulik River in Alaska where bead fishing was fashioned by Craig Zeigler. So to answer your question I hooked several hundred trout on the out side of the mouth with perfect dead drifts, no snagging or lining.

For your education, the creator of bead fishing for trout designed the system to sting the fish on the outside of the jaw. That way the fish would not swallow the egg and/or hook into its stomach sphincter.

Beads are great when it comes to taking abuse.

I am not an elitist. I am not talking crap. MY GOAL IS TO EDUCATE. I WAS TAUGHT BEAD FISHING CARRIES A RESPONSIBILITY WITH THE TRADITION. You should know what you are doing.

I never peg beads, I hitch them so they do not move around. If they are secure with a hitch, inserting a toothpick to achieve greater buoyancy is not a bad idea.

Do what you want, but if you use a bead it is not a fly, and if you like to keep fish, don't keep it if you got the outside of his face.

[dtp916]

Very interesting, wjorg.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I have talked to many fly fisherman who like to use beads, and have never hooked a fish outside the mouth. It does seem very probable that one would....

Did not intend to accuse you (did sound that way after I read over it just now) of being an "elitist" or talking crap, but those that do not like beads seem to have a lot to say about it. Negative, of course.

But since you have used them, to a great extent I see now, I feel your opinion carries significant more weight than those of the elitist "bead-haters."

Might be splitting hairs here, but do you consider hitching a bead to be ethically/morally/whatever-you-want-to-call-it better than pegging?

FYI - I don't eat freshwater fish I catch - am strictly catch and release. If I decide I am in the mood for fried catfish (a rarity) I go to the market.

[wjorg]

The point is to keep it 1.5 inches from the hook. A toothpick gets worn down and slips up or down the line. A hitch is secure, if you can get it in the right place....hence lazy(or naive) folks just peg.

Matt Johnson pegs his bead after he hitches it, for extra flotation, not a bad idea.


Obviously some folks are annoyed with me, but I do not care. I am finding more and more sac fish with ripped lips, which I cannot necessarily attribute to beads, but it sure looks like thats what its from.

[Bob Laskodi]

I have to disagree with the assertion that the fish you are observing from the Lower Sac missing portions of their maxilla (AKA lips) are from "beaders". Fishing regs on the Lower Sac require a barbless hook in the areas you would normally fish a bead. Removal of a barbless hook from the maxilla of a trout should not cause any additional damage. Poor handling may indeed cause more damage. The reason you see "lip-less" trout in AK is because they do not require barbless hooks, and the maxilla are commonly torn away during release because of the barb. I suspect the majority of "lip-less" fish you are seeing is because of the age old "sport" of lining/snagging of salmon practiced on the Lower Sac (amongst many other rivers also!), and the trout are an "incendental" catch of that method.

[AllRiverFishing]

In reply to the ripped up Sac. fish...you guys know that fly fishers aren't the only ones out there fishing for trout on the sac. right? Lots of spin fishermen are out there using bait/lures and (heaven forbid) bonking 'em on the head to give them a ride home. Gobs of roe, crickets, small plugs, even salmon plugs will all hook trout here. Barbed hooks are allowed below deschutes rd. as well which is fantastic trout and salmon water. I've seen numerous trout/steelhead hit those gigantic salmon lures with the magnum treble hooks. How does a trout escape that deal unscarred? From what I've seen personally, the number of disfigured fish is incredibly low considering how many trout and steelhead I see throughout the seasons here. It's even more incredible considering how much pressure this part of the river can receive. I'd say overall most people are taking the best care as possible of the fish...overall. Spin and fly guys both. Not very good anti-bead ammo in my opinion. Other fly fishers might not be the best scapegoats for some disfigured trout. From what I've seen out here fly fishers ESPECIALLY have been stewards for the fish...regardless of chosen method. It may be true,(I personally disagree) but don't forget all of the other fishermen in the formula...they should get a share of the hard earned disdain as well.

[wjorg]

We all harass, kill, eyeball hook through the mouth, brain hook through the mouth(whether you know it or not), and snag an occasional fish. It goes with harassing the things in the first place. If I'm not taking a fish to eat somewhere, I know I am harassing them. Period. What it comes down to is knowing how to use your gear properly to minimize those incidences.

Last I knew you lined salmon with beads....


I'll do my best to refrain from annoying y'all with my incessant banter.

I used to be ashamed of all(by the hundreds) the disfigured fish I saw in rivers in "Pristine" Alaska that are solely fished by fry, leeches, then beads, beads, beads.......no spin gear at all.

Now that bead fishing seems to becoming more prolific in this area, I do not look forward to the same results. I am an assertive advocate of their proper use, which I do not see instructed elsewhere. Forgive me.

I'm done.