Which new fly rod? Best Warranty?

[Steelie Bill]

I am looking to purchase a few new saltwater fly rods. I currently have 3 Scott S3S - 12 weight rods, but am concerned about their warranty program and want to replace them with another brand. Any idea of who has the best warranty program? I will be using these in real "blue water" situations, so the possiblity of a break is possible.

Thanks,
Bill

[gryhackl]

Bill
I have had that discussion with a number of people in and out of the business and what I hear is that SAGE has the best, most comprehensive and fastest warantee program, hands down.

[Adam Grace]

From my experience working in the fly fishing industry for over 6 years, I believe that Sage is the best at around 2-3 weeks for $30. GLoomis is the fastest, shipping your rod in one day but their service is more expensive, or at least used to be/or still is $50.

Aaron or Bill, are those the same charges now?

[jbird]

TFO Has some great bluewater rods available and their customer service is as good as anyones.

Jay

[briansII]

TFO Has some great bluewater rods available and their customer service is as good as anyones.

Jay

I sent my TFO 8wt in on Weds of last week. It came back this Weds! :eek: Now that's some seriously fast service. :)

briansII

[jhaquett]

I third the TFO warranty! My dad just dealt with them and it was smooth

I own two custom rods from a local fly shop and I really enjoy that. Its nice to just go to the shop, drop it off, and pick it up in a couple of days with no cost whatsoever. Don't know if that's really an option with bluewater though.

[jlmelend]

TFO Has some great bluewater rods available and their customer service is as good as anyones.

Jay

I sent my TFO 8wt in on Weds of last week. It came back this Weds! :eek: Now that's some seriously fast service. :)

briansII


Ditto.
My TiCrX 8 weight is a bargain and the unconditional return fee is only $25. One week turnaround (or less) is typical and their staff are very approachable and friendly on the phone or e-mail. I used mine on trevally, bonefish, lady fish and skip jack tuna in the Kona HI area fishing with mems and have never had a problem in saltwater or winter steelheading. Comes with an oversized guide at the tip of the rod, but does not come with a rod tube. Since I travel with two rods at a time in a double tube case, I didn't need one. They have nice larger rods and switch rods which I have enjoyed casting at shops but not fished.

Good luck selecting
Joe

[sacfly]

Bill
I have had that discussion with a number of people in and out of the business and what I hear is that SAGE has the best, most comprehensive and fastest warantee program, hands down.

Who have you heard this from? Once Sage gets your rod, they REBUILD IT. TFO, once they get your rod, they SEND YOU A BRAND NEW ONE. I am at 4 weeks on my $600 z axis, and from what I understand I still have another 2 to 3 months to go.

[sacfly]

From my experience working in the fly fishing industry for over 6 years, I believe that Sage is the best at around 2-3 weeks for $30. GLoomis is the fastest, shipping your rod in one day but their service is more expensive, or at least used to be/or still is $50.

Aaron or Bill, are those the same charges now?

No, Sage is not still at $30, they are at $40. I am waiting on a Sage (love their rods, hate their warranty service, opposite of tfo, ABSOLUTELY BEST WARRANTY IN THE BUSINESS, mildly good to really good rods, while Sage is the best) and it has been 3 weeks, and I have been told that due to "their being busy" to expect to wait another 2 to 3 months!!

I really have to wonder just how wide you "experience" in the fly fishing business has been???? Did you know it is a *FACT* that if you live in Texas (or just want to waste a bunch of money and fly to their headquarters) and go to their headquarters with your broken tfo rod THEY WILL GIVE YOU A NEW ROD *FOR FREE*!!!! RIGHT ON THE SPOT. Have you ever heard of Sage doing this with a XP or ZXL? Lemme guess, you have never dealt with TFO. Yeah, wide range of experience.

Temple Fork FLy Rods turn around time is between 1-3 days. At $25 for shipping unless you bring it in person, in which case they just give you a brand new rod right on the spot. Can you say they same for Sage?

Lemme guess, you have never dealt with temple fork outfitters. Wide range of experience. Uh huh.

[aaron]

Sacfly,
Cool it. Adam has been in and around the industry a very long time.
Sage is usually the best of the premium American made rod companies averaging around 3 to 4 weeks turn around time. Dealing with Sage's warranty dept. day in and day out I find it very hard to believe it would take them 2 to 3 more months to get your rod repaired.

[Ed Wahl]

Interesting topic you started S.B. Shows an evolution in our angling/consumer moods. Being a little old school myself,( just old fart if you like, with apologies to Darian :D ) I've always considered fly rods as permanent aquisitions. Barring the usual killers like car doors, camper shell windows, left feet,or leaving on the top of the car when you drive away the rod should last a lifetime. Now we argue about replacement warranties as a condition of purchase. How are all these rods breaking? Is it inferior manufacturing? Have we let our concept of durability slide into a gully? I own a couple of tfo's rods, they're great but do seem to snap easily. I have an old Fenwick 8wt glass rod that I bought at a flea market for 20 bucks over 25 years ago. It's landed salmon up to 30 pounds and many, many bass. I've done things with that rod that I would never think of doing with a newer high tech lifetime warranty type of rod. You can guess which rod I prefer using. Ed

[nrthcsteel]

sacfly I second the "chill out"! Its not Adams fault that sage may be taking a while to fix your rod,no need to vent your frustration on him. I sent a rod to Sage and it was back to me a month from the day I SENT IT OUT. Ed I think that with todays graphite and the rods seemingly getting "__ % lighter than last years model....." it doesnt take much to knick a rod, whether it be from banging around a drift boat,falling on the rocks at the river side or the stray 6"+ lead eye dredger fly whacking the rod on an errant cast. May not even be noticeable but all of a sudden a cast or fighting a fish and snap@! I dont know just a thought. Kevin

[jbird]

With a couple of exceptions, every rod I've broken, the top foot or so of the rod just slid down the line without warning. Like Kevin said, you can nick them and not even know theyre damaged, then one day, the tip just falls off if it flexes too much.

Customer service is important to me, I fish my rods hard and I break them, its only a matter of time. They are tools really.

I have also heard of some wonderful customer service by redington...arent they sage owned now?


Whats with the personal attack on Adam, even if he's wrong its totally uncalled for.

Jay

[sacfly]

sacfly I second the "chill out"! Its not Adams fault that sage may be taking a while to fix your rod,no need to vent your frustration on him. I sent a rod to Sage and it was back to me a month from the day I SENT IT OUT. Kevin

It took a month and you are praising them? If it was TFO people would be like WTF is going on? Not only is 1-3 days turnaround average for tfo, if you bring your broken rod to TFO they will give you a new one ON THE SPOT FOR FREE!

Can ANYONE claim to being able to droping by Sage in Washington with their XP or Z-AXIS that is broken and get a NEW ONE ON THE SPOT FOR FREE?

Yet Mr Grace claims he "has a wide range of experience in the fly fishing business" and that Sage is the best.

[jhaquett]

How much stock does this guy have in TFO? :lol: :lol:


Dude, all the guy was looking for was an opinion. Pretty sure yours has been duly noted. :roll:

[aaron]

Comparing Sage to TFO is ridiculous. Sage builds rods in the USA with the best technology in the industry where as TFO has their rods produced over seas. Don't get me wrong TFO makes an awsome line of rods for the price and therefore should be able to quickly give you a new part because they make them so inexpensively. Sage or any similar high end company builds you a new section and then checks to make sure of a proper fit, flex, etc. which takes more time. It is the trade off you make by buying the best. You're comparing apples to oranges and it just doesn't work.

[Adam Grace]

Wow, that was a nice personal attack! For the record, I have not been in the industry for a little over a year now, and things tend to change. I don't let guys like Sac Fly get to me, but thanks for the supporting words guys. TFO does have a nice warranty but when it only costs them less than $30 to mass produce over seas rods they have the ability to completely REPLACE their rods. For the money TFO makes nice rods but they are not a Sage or Scott.

[nrthcsteel]

"it took a month are you praising them..."
As jbird mentioned rods are tools and as with any tool if its put to good use eventually it may break or need to be replaced. Now I try and take as good of care of my rods as possible. But they are made to be fished. I hope they last a lifetime but I realize for whatever reason whether it be factory error,accidental or in most cases operator error the rod may break. I work in the HVAC field and without the use of my tools I would not get anything done. If my sawzall or drill goes out I need to replace it. Ive called companies with this issue and the cost to send it in and have it fixed wasnt worth it, I was better off in the long run just buying a new one. You shouldnt be complaining that a company takes a little while to get your rod back to you. In fact you should be happy that they will take care of the problem, a problem that may be NO FAULT OF THERES, for a small fee. So for taking care of a broken rod or other rod issue problems I am praising sage and TFO and any other rod company that provides warranty services for there rods( whether it takes 1-3 days or 1-3 months!) If your not happy with Sage because of there warranty service then state your opinion and move on. And if TFOs' service makes you happy then stick with TFO. We know your not happy with Sage, YOUR OPINION HAS BEEN HEARD. Kevin

[Jay Murakoshi]

Adam,

Not too jump on you but do you have any idea what a SAGE or LOOMIS high end rod cost? It was amazing too find out how much of a mark up (and there's alot) there are in these products. Just like the jewelery business.
I still like my Loomis but I'm leaning towards a BASS rod.

Tough skin for cyber space :D

Jay

[jbird]

want to replace them with another brand. Any idea of who has the best warranty program?

In light of the original question, I think all brands of rods are fare game. Sage and TFO are a good comparison. There are a lot of top notch anglers out there that prefer tfo over sage...and visa versa. Theyre both great rods. If both companies make a rod that fish very well and both have a cult following and both accomplish the same thing, why cant they be compared? If warantee program is the criteria for the purchase of your next rod, then TFO would probably be a better choice. Thers still no excuse for how the comparison was presented in the earlier posts.

Jay

[bubzilla]

I've always considered fly rods as permanent aquisitions.

That's a good point, Ed. And, it raises an issue I don't think a lot of people consider when it comes to rod warranties. The warranty itself may specify that the term of the warranty is for the life of the original owner, but the reality is the warranty is good for the life of the company. That is, when the company goes the way of the Dodo so does your warranty. Now, Sage is probably going to be around long after I am not, but there are a lot of new start-up companies selling Asian-made rods these days that may not be around a few years from now. We just don't know what is going to happen to them.

Also, to paraphrase my good friend Chris Farley, "I can [go to the bathroom] in a box and mark it 'guaranteed', I got the time..." but it won't make it a good product. That is, a piece of junk with a replacement warranty is still a piece of junk. Don't get me wrong, the warranty is important to me, but the quality of the product is more important.

I have broken quite a few rods over the years--it just happens. I have dealt with Sage, Loomis, Redington, Scott, and Thomas & Thomas. The old Redington company had a pretty sweet deal with the over-the-counter replacement policy. Dealing with Scott is like pulling teeth, and I won't buy another one of their rods ever again as a result. Sage has always taken a couple weeks to turnaround a rod, and they have, at their discretion as allowed under the terms of the warranty repaired rather than replaced on occasion. Thomas & Thomas has been helpful even though they did not have an unconditional warranty in place, and they make a fine product, but you do not want to be in a hurry. But Loomis, with their new Expeditor program, is simply awesome. That's ironic because when Gary owned the company he refused to embrace the unconditional warranty movement, but now there is no comparison out there with high-end makers.

I broke a Loomis in Mexico this summer. When I got home, I used their online replacement system. This was on a Friday. On Monday I had a brand new rod, sock, and tube. I placed the broken rod in the box and used the return label they provided. Sure, it cost $50.00, but you have to keep in mind that includes both ends of the shipping, and didn't require so much as a single conversation with anyone. Heck, I did the whole thing holding a beer--and can you really put a price tag on that? Sounds like Sage is at $40.00 now, and that is just the return end--you still have to get them the rod. TFO is $25.00? That's just front end too, though. I don't have a local TFO dealer, so I have to get them the rod if I ever break my TFO and that is going to run more than the $25.00 charged by TFO as a result.

The biggest thing for me is the quality of the product, though. And, there's a reason Andy Mill, Jose Wejebe, and Flip Pallot fish Loomis, and it ain't just cause they get 'em for free. Of course, they aren't cheap, but as Ed said you are making a lifetime investment.

[bubzilla]

Sage or any similar high end company builds you a new section and then checks to make sure of a proper fit, flex, etc. which takes more time. It is the trade off you make by buying the best. You're comparing apples to oranges and it just doesn't work.

I'm sorry, but that is a generalization that is not accurate. That's what Sage and most other high-end makers do, but that is not what any or every high-end company does. Loomis, through their Expeditor program, replaces broken rods. No questions asked. No waiting, no hassle, no nothing. You're back in business in a couple days, and when it's in the middle of a short season or when I have another trip planned in a few days, that's a huge deal to me. They're made in the United States as well. And, their CC GLX series are arguably the best saltwater rods at any price. Sage chooses to make repairs, and that is their choice, but it's not accurate to say that every high-end rod maker has the same process, because they don't. It might be possible to argue that Sage makes a better rod, but that TFO has a better warranty program. But I think Loomis wins on both counts.

[aaron]

Well excuse my generalization I was referring to companies who choose to go the repair rout. It's hard to beat the Loomis program if you like their rods.

[Darian]

Lotsa good points raised here. :) :) Ed, even ol' farts buy fly rods now and then.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

To the originator of this thread.... Not sure how much evaluation you've already done or if this is the first attempt.... But there's a lot of objective/subjective information involved in the choices mentioned. Also, info is personalized by our experiences, etc., that tends to make choices harder than they need to be.

Any product may be compared with any other like product by establishing/writing down what your "needs" and "wants" are for the purchase to be made. 8) Make this list as detailed as you feel comfortable with and making sure you include points raised by other posters in this thread. Then compare each brands product against those criteria, note the differences and make a choice or choose not to. (Remember your K-T training :) :) ) This analysis won't eliminate subjectivity but will make the process more objective and valuable in making decision(s).

If you have a spreadsheet program on your computer, it'll be easier to use/save for future reference (since you won't buy only one item in your lifetime). :D :D :D

[BillyB]

Interesting topic here boys. I fish Scott rods. Their sevice has been great. Never had longer than a 2 week turn around. When I broke the top ferrule in a door they repaired it and when I broke the butt section they replaced the entire rod.
If you want to employ 10 year old Korean and Chinese rod makers keep buying those TFO rods/Echo rods. I'll stick with American made.

[jhaquett]

Don't think I know another group of people who could turn "thinking about buying a new rod" into this... :shock: :lol: :roll:

[jbird]

Billy

Your experience with Scott was an exception. They are the worst of them all for turnaround time. With that said, if my Scott disappeared, I'd buy a new one the next day. I love my Scott rod. I cringe at the thought of breaking it again cause I know first hand how slow they are. That is a very well documented fact with Scott customers.

Jay

[Paul B.]

I can think of a couple more exceptions. I have sent two Scott rods in for repair. One their fault and once not. Both rods were back in my hands in a month give or take a few days. Pretty good I think.
I have never had to send a Sage rod in for repair (I own and fish three a lot) so I can't speak for service there but I have heard that they are very good.
If you think a month or two is a long time to wait try busting up a new bamboo rod and waiting for it to be repaired or replaced. There is only so much an induvidual or a company big or small can do in a given time. PB

[Adam Grace]

:lol: Nice Paul :lol:

Jay, I agree with you, Scott's repair turn-around time is pretty bad the majority of the time but I, like you, enjoy their rods so much that I'll continue to buy Scott rods even though they're not a fast repair company.

Like Paul recommended, I buy rods based on their feel and performance in my hand, but I can respect someones desire to also want a fast repair time.

Hopefully some of this argument has helped you with your warranty question.

[Darian]

This thread has become a discussion of warranties of a limited number of rod mfgr's. How about considering a Cam Sigler rod :?: :?: I have a 3 piece, 12 weight Cam Sigler rod for use in Baja and other saltwater situations. It casts like a cannon and has some very good looking aesthetics. Accompanied by my Abel Super 12, the rod is not unreasonably heavy but I wouldn't want to cast it all day. Cam Sigler rods are price competitive, also. I haven't had a need to look into the warranty yet. There're other, heavier Cam Sigler models available with gimbled butts for use with a fighting belt. these rods come with a cork or open cell foam grips and fore-grips (if wanted). Check out their website:

www.camsigler.com

[Gregg]

You should buy whatever rod casts the best for what you want to do...then buy a second, cheaper, backup rod for the "just in case" situation. TFO, Echo, Scott A2 (or V2 if you can find one) are all solid rods for a great price, and will at least keep you fishing if the warranty process drags on for longer than expected.

Sacfly-

Definitley chill out. I'm assuming you are one of the people in this world with no "inner monologue" to help figure out the appropriate course to take during a conversation, but you will find it immensely more fun to part of this board if you think BEFORE you type. Adam has history in the FF industry and I'd trust his knowledge...and either way, it's just not that big of a deal if a warranty takes a bit longer than expected. There is worldwide genocide, starvation, and oppression...and we get the luxury of an unlimited lifetime warranty for our fishing equipment. Unless, that is, your real name is Steve and I'll understand...

Jay-

Markup is all part of the game in commerce, it's the way we have shops like Bills to visit. I agree that certain markups, like jewelry as you noted, or furniture, are unbelievable on paper...but that's why you tend to see the amazing 75% super sale deals regularly. I'd venture to guess that fly rods carry a similar markup to other high-end sporting goods, which isn't always terribly great when you factor in the time required to educate the customer before selling the product (labor hours used...), the quantity of floor space required to show and sell, and the controls imposed on retailers by vendors to keep MSRP consistant. In the end, hardgoods (flyrods, reels, etc...) carry the lowest margin when compared to other items, like flies or apparel. Of course, it's always the lowest profitable products that we seek the best deals on and the most liberal warranty policy. Logically, we should be demanding warranty on flies more so than rods. This is all referring to margins though, which isn't really relevant to the intended topic of discussion for this thread...

[bubzilla]

Siglers are nice, Darian. Though I haven't had to use it, knock on wood, they are supposed to have a good turnaround on warranty service, too. Also, they've been around for a while, and seem to be established enough that they will be around in the future. Like I said before, that concerns me with some of the newer companies. I really like my 14 wt. But I was under the impression that their larger rods were only available with foam grips. Wasn't sure what I would think about the foam prior to fishing with it, but it's actually very comfortable--particularly when you're pulling hard on a big fish. Anyway, I agree that they make a very nice product, and they won't break your bank.

[Darian]

Hmmmm,..... I hadn't really thought about it up 'til now but I think you're right. The heavier models only have foam grips. :o :o Not a negative, tho. Especially for saltwater use. :) :)

[Darian]

Just to add to the discussion, went over to Kiene's today with the intent of casting one of the Beulah switch rods in Bill's inventory.... Have heard a bunch of good things about them and have been in the market for a switch rod since last spring. 8) 8)

Bill had two switch rod's in inventory; a 6/7 weight and a 7/8 weight. For those of you unfamiliar with Beulah rods, their switch rods are all 10' 6'' in length. I chose the 6/7 for a test. The rod has 4 sections, a very pleasing dark green blank and very pleasing cosmetics. 8) 8)

The rod was matched, first, with a WF7F line (not a spey line). The rod easily casted this line as long as didn't try to overpower the stroke. Distances were consistently around 85' using a single hand cast. However, I felt it didn't load the rod adequately enough to really punch out some distance. :? :? Next up was a WF8F line. This line did load the rod properly and I was able to cast the entire length of the line using one or two backcasts with a double haul and shooting everything over 35' - 40' of line beyand the tip-top. :) :) This rod cast that distance consistently without tiring me out. :) :) :)

Needless to say I bought it without considering terms of the warranty.
:wink: :P :P Can't wait to try it out on the fish.... :D :D

Incidentally,.... For anyone in the market for a 12 weight rod, Bill has a Cam Sigler, 12 weight on sale right now. The price is even lower than their regular reasonable price. :shock: :shock: :D :D

[Mike O]

lest we forget the ethics...

the rods I have with warrantees warrent them against manuf. defects. how many of us (yes, me included) have sent rods back because we slammed them in the car door, smacked them on the water in frustration, caught them in a fence/tree/rock/etc., then sent them back to the manuf. expecting a free replacement (for the cost of shipping and handling.)??? WE spend up to $700 plus on a rod and expect the company to replace a broken section for $50? Maybe that is why the rod was $700 in the first place.

That being said...I think the warrantee should be low down on the list. If you like TFO's casting then buy it! After all you can by 3 of them for the price of a Sage. If the Fenwick works well...buy it!! Just don't expect to get it replaced if you bought it at a flea market (I don't think you expect that, but some won't buy a used rod w/o warrantee card) Throw the rod, then buy the rod. If money is no object (lucky you) then buy the one that you like best.

Thanks for the interesting thread, people.

[Steelie Bill]

Thanks for all the responses on my question of best warranties. Sure seems that there are a lot of different views on what the warranty is for and what it isn't! I agree that the feel of a fly rod is probably first and foremost, but let's face it . . . a 12 weight saltwater rod is probable not going to be the best rod in your collection for casting. A 12 weight in a true "blue water application" is more a tool, than a joy. My 5 weight I bought based on feel, but my 12 weight which is going to have a good chance of being broken by some "big monster" out of control stripping out my line and backing at mach one might require other considerations when being purchased!! I recently sent a Scott rod in for repair and was left with a feeling of complete amazement that any company could operate with that poor of customer service. Love their rods, hate their service . . . enough said . . . this isn't a post on Scott. I just wanted to hear some ideas on other companies warranties that might influence my choice of future purchases. I usually fish in Saltwater more than a couple of times in a season. Just don't have time for a rod broken in April to show up fixed "half right" in September. After reading the numerous posts, sounds like Loomis might be the best choice!!

Thanks again for your posts!!

[Tony Buzolich]

Bill,

It sounds like you're in the market for a new rod and want a 12 weight, ideally that is castable.

I carry both Loomis and TFO at our shop and my vote goes to TFO's Bluewater Light series. It IS a castable 12 weight with incredible strength and lifting power. The rod contains a blend of "S" glass along with graphite and has been my most popular rod for offshore use.

As for service, I think TFO is second to none.

If you're in the area stop in and cast one, you'll like it.

Tony Buzolich
Johnson's Bait-Tackle & Fly
YUba City, Ca.

[bonish]

Interesting topic ,as I wouldn't necessarily place a company's warranty service as one of the top determinants in my product choice. If a product doesn't perform to your standards, then the greatest warranty in the world doesn't mean anything.

An analogy, albeit perhaps a poor one, I would use is that Hyundai has a great powertrain warranty on their cars, but personally, I'd prefer something else that provides better performance with a "not as good" warranty (and of course, a most likely higher price tag).

As for my experience, Sage has repaired and returned broken rods as fast three working days though my last broken rod was five years ago. We'll see what happens shortly as I have to return a rod broken a couple of weeks ago while landing a nice fin clipped steelie on the Lower Sac.

[bubzilla]

lest we forget the ethics...

the rods I have with warrantees warrent them against manuf. defects. how many of us (yes, me included) have sent rods back because we slammed them in the car door, smacked them on the water in frustration, caught them in a fence/tree/rock/etc., then sent them back to the manuf. expecting a free replacement (for the cost of shipping and handling.)???

Not sure which brand of rods you are using, but VERY few makers still have warranties covering only defects. Most makers, e.g., Scott, Sage, Loomis, TFO, etc., have warranties that cover breakage pretty much regardless of cause. That is, the sorts of accidents you mention are specifically included under warranty, and therefore it is not unethical in the least to send a rod back for replacement that, for example, was slammed in a car door. Sage, as an example, excludes rods damaged by fire or damaged from intentional breakage, but the accidents you describe are warrantied.

Again, there a few rod makers around that have warranties limited to defects, but the overwhelming majority of makers went to no-fault warranties over a decade ago.

[aaron]

Companies examine the break and determine whether it was caused by a defect on their end or the customer's fault (stepping on it, dinging it with a fly etc.) If they deem it their fault they will waive the fee. Moral of the story, the majority of the time breakage occurs people people ding their rods etc. without knowing it and eventually it will cause a rod to fail.

[WinterrunRon]

Any idea of who has the best warranty program? I will be using these in real "blue water" situations, so the possiblity of a break is possible.

Thanks,
Bill

Bill, I am not aware of any other company in the world offering a better warranty program than G. Loomis for your situation. "Best" is a relative term, but if you investigate their Expediter Program and compare it to all others... I think you'll agree.

Ron

[Adam Grace]

Very well put Carl!