Striper fly-line? and other gear.

[Steelie-Stalker]

Im looking to start fly-fishing for stripers, mainly in the american river, delta, and san luis/o'neill forebay. So to your striper experts out there, what do i need???

I have a 7 wt. fly rod, i know it is a little light, but getting a new fly rod is out of the question for me right now. I have a ross flycast 4 to go with it.

So with that, i need sink tip or sinking fly line, i have also heard of shooting heads, are they useful? I'm going to buy some clousers, and tie some using them as a reference. I know what leader to use.

Any other tips? All is useful!

Thanks so much!!!!!

Steelie-Stalker

[flygolf]

I would go with the SA custom cut. I think its the one of the best lines for the money.

[Darian]

Your current rod/reel set-up is probably a little light but still accpetable.

IMHO, since you've named several places you'd like to fish, some with rapidly moving water and some still water, you should not limit yourself to one line or one type. 8) 8) That means you should look into shooting heads. They cost less (you can get a number of them for the cost of one full line), offer variety and can be cast for great distances if needed. 8) 8)

Of course, if you haven't used shooting heads before, there's a learning curve involved. Your choice of running lines will make a difference in the amount of time involved in that curve. A non-monofilament running line will offer more "touch" while learning to double haul/retrieve. It will feel more like a weight forward line yet still offer the ability to change heads (using loop to loop connections) when needed.

The "....SA custom cut...." mentioned is a specialized line (still a very good choice for someone not just starting to get into this game). 8) 8)

[Steelie-Stalker]

I'm still confused what shooting head are. How are they like, rigged up, and what do they do? I have a WF7F line right now, would i attatch it to the end of that or on the end of a sinkin line or sink tip line. I have another spool for my reel on its way, should i get another?

I was looking at some RIO shooting heads.

would it make sense to get an intermediate sinking fly line, then interchange the shooting head off of that when switching between waters?

BTW thanks for the help!

Steelie-Stalker

[Adam Grace]

Generally a "sinktip" is a full length line where the last 15'-30' is made of a sinking material (which is also called the "head") designed to pull the fly below the surface. Some sinktips have floating running lines (the thin line behind the sinking tip section) and some have an intermediate sinking line, a line that barely sinks below the surface. For fishing fast moving water where mending the running line is required to allow the head to sink a floating running line can be important. Intermediate running lines a good for slower moving water and allowing the running line to sink deeper along with the head.

Shooting heads are the sinking head of a sink tip without the running line permanently attached, they are sold in a common length of 30', they also are available in different sink rates. The sinking rates depend on how thin and dense the head is. Sink rates are generally clssified by "types" A type 3 sinks at 3 ips (3" per second,) a type 6 sinks at 6 ips, and an intermediate head or running linne sinks at ~ 1.5 ips.

Shooting heads have a taper like the front taper of a floating line, the back of the head is thick and usually has a loop where you attach a running line to, the front part of the head is tapered thinner to properly turn over the fly line.

Running lines come in various different diameters, a .030" running line is the most common among striper fisherman. Most people attach a loop to the end of the running line where the heads is to be attached, some r.lines come with a loop from the factory.

A shooting head system allows you switch from different sinking rate heads to adapt to the water type that you are fishing where a sinktips on has one sinking rate that may sink too fast or too slow for different water types.

In both system you allow only a small length of running line out of the rod tip while casting allowing the weight of the sinking head to pull the lighter r.line out through the guides of the rod without the friction of a thicker running line, allowing you to send the head and the r.line shooting out towards you target, casting farther than almost any other line.

[JerryInLodi]

If you're uncomfortable with the idea of shooting heads, you might take a look at the Rio Striper Express in either 250 or 300 grains. I throw a 250 on my soft seven weights but if I had a stiff seven weight I would most likely opt for the 300 grain.

These lines cast easily and most fly fishers can easily throw the whole line, 120 feet. That's more than enough of a cast for stripers. They sink like a rock and handle exremely easily. I believe they retail for about $60.

[jbird]

Adam

What a perfect description and easy to understand...you mustve worked at a fly shop at some point :D :D :wink:

This is one of those posts that beginners will benefit from for a long time to come...Like David lee's striper tips. Makes you wonder if a "beginners" section would be beneficial. A place wher greenhorns can anonomously brouse the nuggets from the boards veterans.

Jay

[Steelie-Stalker]

Thanks for the explanation Adam, very easy to understand.

so what's the difference between these:

http://cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/horizontal-pod.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/pod-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20431-cat601303&rid=&indexId=cat601303&navAction=push&masterpathid=&navCount=5&parentType=index&parentId=cat601303&id=0037441

and any other shooting heads? anything?

So, i think im gonna go with an intermediate sinking line, and have assorted shooting heads to go with that to satisfy the situation.

I was thinking one of the striper series from rio, with some of there shooting heads,

what do oyou think
thanks!

[David Lee]

Thanks again , Jay .

Blast from the past ....

http://www.kiene.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=10

http://www.kiene.com/messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=593

[Adam Grace]

Nice "blast from the past" David :D I was wondering just how many times we've replied to posts like this. It is nice to be able to help.

Jay and Steelie-Stalker, thanks for you kind comments, I spent a little bit more time writing that than I expected but I care about being thorough and easy to understand.

Steelie-Stalker, if you learn how to cast and fish shooting heads now you will be able to adapter a little bit more than other fly fishermen only fishing one single sinktip, not that fishing one sinktip is bad, just not as adaptable.

For striper fishing the most common type of head is made of LC-13 (Lead core line anywhere from 26'-30') for you I'd try a type 6 or faster shooting head because a 26' head of LC-13 would be 338 grains, which is pretty heavy for beginners using a 7wt, heck it's heavy for almost any sane fly fisherman. :D

Rio makes a type 8 head that would be a great fast sinking line for you, very close to/or a little faster than lead core without the extra weight, also much more flexible and easier to cast. With these new Rio Max Shooting head you buy the proper line weight for your rod, i.e. a 7wt head for a 7wt rod since Rio is actually lining up these heads now to be ordered directly for their appropriate line weights.

Here's a link to their Rio Max shooting head selection and specifications:

http://www.rioproducts.com/product.php?recKey=28

For you I recommend starting with a type 6 head, then if you need to buy a type 3 and then a type 8 if you really need to get down. The faster the head sinks the faster you can fish but the more difficult it is to learn to cast with.

An intermediate running line is also very common among striper fishermen, that would be a good choice.

Kiene's sold these shooting head when I left, hopefully Bill still stocks these nice shooting heads.

[Adam Grace]

As far as Cabela's goes, if your not sure what your looking at or buying, DON"T BUY IT, that's why there's friendly fly shops like Kiene's, without knowledgeable employees and owners at shops you would have a hard time getting properly set up, which could mean wasting time and money.

Now before all you Cablea's types of customers start to get on my case, Cabela's can offer some great prices........but what would you do if you didn't know what to buy or what the difference was between products after you get through reading Cabelas little descriptions. If there weren't shops like Kiene's with friendly and KNOWLEDGEABLE people like Bill and his employees many new and experienced fly fisherman would be without the proper advice that comes from their years of experience .

Since I do not support big box store like Cableas I have a questions for those of you who do. How easy is it to get one-on-one advice from a place like Cabela's? How much information do they really supply to you.

Sorry for the soap box rant but as you can see my experience in the fly fishing industry has made be very supportive of small specialty shops like fly shops.

Steelie-Stalker, sorry for the rant, here's my late response to your question: The t-8 and T-14 heads are the new-fangled lines made to compete with LC-13. They are cool, much easier to cast and form a loop due to their supple nature. The 15' tips are to be added to a sink tip system unlike the shooting head system talked about earlier, they are for multi-tip line that come in a kit either for single-handed lines or for spey lines. Forget most of that stuff right now, T-8 might be good for you later but I'd start with their Rio Max Shooting heads right now, the Rio Max tapers will makes your journey into shooting head casting easier.

[jbird]

HEY KIDS! When this kind of knowledge is flowing so freely in public, open up your sponges and soak it up!!!! This is an incredibly rare place where veteran, knowledgable flyfisherman go out on a limb for you.
I would copy and paste all this and save it to your computer. A month from now youll be fishing circles around guys who got a year head start on you.

Adam. I agree with your view of major warehouse sporting markets. I just wish we had a Kienes up here! :D

Jay

[Steelie-Stalker]

So Rio Max 30' shooting heads are what you're talking about, right? I was going to get the Type 3, and the type 6.


So that's covered, what about the mainline?

I was thinking this line
http://www.rioproducts.com/product.php?recKey=47
OR
http://www.rioproducts.com/product.php?recKey=52
OR
http://www.rioproducts.com/product.php?fmCategory=9

Any other suggestions im open to, im looking for an intermediate line.

Thanks so much to all of you guys for helping, i really appereciate it!
Steelie-Stalker

BTW I think im going to come up to kiene's fly shop to get this stuff, just to make sure i am getting the right stuff. I also need some other assorted flies and "stuff".

[Adam Grace]

Those lines that you selected are totally different than a "shooting line" (also called a "running line"). You need, what Rio calls a "shooting line."

Look for this:

.030in 0.762mm Intermediate Sink 120 0.03 0 0 120 1.5-2 25

on this page:

http://www.rioproducts.com/product.php?recKey=103

There are other great running lines out there as well. I'm not sure what the "hot" running line is at Kiene's right now, they tend to change often due to the large amounts of r. lines fished and sold by Bill's talented staff. A couple of years ago the hot r. line was the Airflo Polyfuse XT intermediate r. line, before that the Rio line that I suggested above was very popular. The Rio r. line has a nice small welded lop at the end of their r. lines and the back of their heads which will provide you a nice glide through the rod guides.

[JerryInLodi]

Steelie-Stalker,

May I suggest that you start with only one head, the type VI and be sure you like fishing with a head system before spending more money.

When fishing stripers if I were to REALLY generalize, you fish two types of water, flats like Mildred and Franks and sloughs and rivers like Connection Slough, False River, etc. On the flats (almost no current) you need a slower sinking line since a striper retrieve is made up of erratic stops and starts. If you're fishing with an extremely quick sinking line, by the time you throw in the pauses, you're on the bottom.

The way most people avoid that with a quick sinking line is by starting to strip a little early rather than allow a full count down and fish the line as it sinks. This technique is still very effective but you're not in the ZONE as long as someone with a slower sinking line since you start stripping with the line high in the water column and end with it at the bottom. (Luckily, stripers are pelagic fish and move up and down in the water column freely and while generally are a couple of feet of the bottom, they can be found as well in the top two feet on occasion.)

On the other occasions you're fishing in rivers and sloughs with current. The fly will be swinging as it sinks. To be effective you want a line that really drops quickly so you can be in the zone as quickly as possible and stay there as long as possible. Even if you're fishing rip-wrap walls, the walls fall off in depth so quickly that you can be in fifteen feet of water only eight feet away from the wall.

In that case, where you're fishing "downhill" You start your strip at soon as the cast ends and bring the fly down the face of the wall. This is extremely effective fishing on the second half of an incoming when the stripers are cruising right up against the wall, looking to trap bait fish and crayfish. Be prepared for a grab almost as soon as the fly hits the water.

When fishing uphill, casting from the shallows to the deep (12-15 feet) in current you will want a line that sinks like a rocket. A long count down and then strip.

If I were to set up with only one head, I'd go for the Type VI or a length of T-8 since it's easier to compensate for fishing in shallow water with a heavy line than to fish in deeper water with current with a light line. You can use an unweighted fly with the VI or T-8 in eight feet of water and still be a very effective fisherman. You'd be much less effective using a weighted fly with a type III in moving water.

The nice thing about using heads is that you can buy one at a time. I'd suggest that you pick up the type VI or a section of T-8 with some .30 running line and put your basic system together and try it before buying more heads.

Most people have no trouble fishing with heads however, some people just can't stand the loop to loop connection when casting and others just don't like bringing the loops through the guides. Before you spend money building a head system try just one head. If you find that you just can't stand it, the other choice is some of the new integrated lines.

On the other hand, if you find the head system is for you, you can buy a whole series of heads from intermediate all the way to T-8. While you may not need them all for stripers, you'll be set for lots of other valley fish, especially shad.

[Adam Grace]

Thanks for your input Jerry!

I agree, start with a type 6 and see how you like that head if you choose to go with a shooting head system.

Steelie-Stalker, Yes I was talking about the Rio Max Shooting Heads.

Sorry for only talking about the shooting head system Steelie-Stalker. Your other option is to fish a sinktip without the interchangeability. This is the most popular method for hard core striper guys do to the lack of loops bumping through the guides.

The majority of the hard-core striper fishermen use only one fast sinking head. Some guys even go as far as permanently connecting a head like LC-13 or T-8/T-14 to their running line once they've found the head that works the best for their water type. There are even lines out there that have little to no taper (the Custom Tip Express) just like the lines that guys make themselves, that way there are no loops going through the guides.

The custom tip express is the equivalence of a .030 running line with a ~ type 8 head, with both sections "welded" together like some guys do themselves, but with a smoother head-to-r.line transition.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Scientific_Anglers/Fly-Fishing/Products/SinkingTip/Professional/CustomTipExpress/

With this line you cut the head back to the desires grain weight for you rod, unfortunately your 7wt is a little too light for this line, you'd have to cut back way to much of the head leaving you with a short head that will turn over too fast.

For your lighter 7wt rod you want about 200-250 grains in the sinking head of the sinktip line.

For both of these lines, choose the 250 grain lines.

Here's Rio's striper sink tip line:

http://www.rioproducts.com/product.php?recKey=46

The streamer express is a nice sinktip line:

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/Scientific_Anglers/Fly-Fishing/Products/SinkingTip/MasteryFresh/StreamerExpressRapid/

My favorite sink tip line for striper is the S.A. 250 grain Streamer Express, the running line is slicker and I like the longer 30' head over the 26' head on the Rio line.....but the shorter Rio head might be easier for you to cast. the advantage of the 30' head is that you have a longer over hang (the length of line outside the rod tip) which lengthens your casting distance. You end up having more weight outside the rod tip available to pull out the lighter shooting line, launching your fly into oblivion 8)

Sorry if you are a little bit confused now, I went off on a shooting head tangent before. One draw back to the interchangeability of the shooting head system is that you have to deal with those loops going in and out of your guides all day long. That loop issue combined with the fact that most striper guys only really use one type of head (fast sinking) might cause you to start out with a sinktip line.

What would you striper guys out there recommend?

[jbird]

BTW I think im going to come up to kiene's fly shop to get this stuff, just to make sure i am getting the right stuff. I also need some other assorted flies and "stuff".

Now that youve soaked all this info, Just let the guys at Keines set it up for you. There are a lot of options out there, but for a beginner, keeping it simple is going to make things a lot funner.

Have blast, stripers are cool.

Jay

[JerryInLodi]

Adam, for myself, on my eight weight I use an old standby, 27 feet of T-14 nail knotted to 50 pound Rio Slick Shooter. I guess I've moved into the modern era with the Slick Shooter since I used 30# Amnesia before. I have used this system for years and have never had the line pull out from the nail knot, including having sails and 40 pound Dorado pull on the system as well as some pretty heavy rocks and trees. I do use a five turn nail knot and make sure it is PERFECT and cinch it down deeply into the T14. I change it when I see moderate wear at the knot joint.

I've forgone the loop system in favor of the nail knot because of the almost silent tick that the splice makes as it clears the guides compared to the saw sound of a loop system. Casting all day, day after day, the difference is significant.

I was recently mailed a Rio Custom Tip, T-14 integrated into a mono running line. I have to admit that this is a VERY good line and has the advantage of having a running line with a little more weight to fish with on a windy day so it's easier to hit the stripping bucket. I think it is very similar to the SA custom tip but I believe the SA running line is a slightly larger diameter.

I run the Rio 350 grain Striper Express on my guest rods, again, an integrated line. It's a VERY easy line to cast on a medium action nine weight and you can actually throw overhead loops (rather than sidearm) with a weighted clouser without the threat of the fly dropping and taking your ear off as it passes by. A practiced caster can throw the entire line with this setup.

I do occasionally fish with a seven weight for stripers, like now, early in the season when large fish are rare. I use a Rio 250 Striper Express. It sinks well enough to fish most water and again has the double advantage of no loop to loop joint and a real running line rather than amnesia, easier to handle in any wind. It also works well casting right at the water's edge of the rip-wrap for LMB with Puglisies, woolly buggers and smaller clousers. I can walk the fly right down the face of the wall.

It's hard to decide whether to recommend the new dedicated striper lines to people or the old head system. Using a head system and four heads and a seven weight, a valley fisherman would be able to fish a variety of fish, shad, steelhead, trout and stripers if he uses heavy 20# tippet and drops the rod tip low enough to really put some pressure on the fish. (With anything of above seven pounds, the fish will be loading that rod all the way down to the butt. A seven is really too light to fish for stripers on a regular basis.)

The cost of trying a head system is relatively inexpensive and it's worth a try. I'm not a big fan of the braided loop system but I do have several Rio Multihead systems. These coated welded loops transition so easily that I can't fault them.

I agree with all the advice given!

[David Lee]

Using a head system and four heads and a seven weight, a valley fisherman would be able to fish a variety of fish, shad, steelhead, trout and stripers if he uses heavy 20# tippet and drops the rod tip low enough to really put some pressure on the fish. (With anything of above seven pounds, the fish will be loading that rod all the way down to the butt. A seven is really too light to fish for stripers on a regular basis.

I'm not trying to argue or start a fight , but I have a very different point of view . Not that anyone here or elsewhere is "wrong "........

A 7 wt. IN THE RIGHT HANDS is much more effective than a 12 wt. in the hands of someone who doesn't have any experence in fighting fish .

A 790-3 Sage RPLX was my main Striper rod for over 6 years (well over 100 days a year , each year) - In that span ...... I landed Stripes of 40+ lbs. , one in the low 30 lb. range , and more than a half-dozen over 20 lbs. Using 8 to 12 lb. tippets ..... I NEVER had a problem with anything I hooked .

This isn't pointed at you , Jerry ..... so I really hope you don't take it as any sort of attack . I just do not buy into the 8 wt./20 lb. tippet mindset . I defy ANYONE to pull more than 6 or 7 lbs. WITH a bend in the rod . It isn't going to happen . If the 'fighting' tactic is pointing the rod at the fish and locking-up the reel ..... it ISN'T flyfishing (at least not the way I do it) . To each their own , right ??

I know very well that a 20 lb. point WILL take more abuse and offers MUCH more leeway for mistakes during a fight . There's no debate there . 10 or 12 lb. with the correct knots is a bitch to break - I know this from many years of beating the s&%# out of King Salmon and Stripers .

Is a 9 or 10 wt. more effective for throwing large flies ?? Hell yeah , it is !! But if you don't know the 'limits' of your chosen tackle/don't know how to REALLY put the heat on big fishes ..... you might as well be fishing a 3 wt.

Again , I hope that no one takes this as stirring the crap - I will continue to use REASONABLLY light tackle on large fish ..... and I'll sleep just fine .

David :)

[Sturmer White]

Hey Steelie
I don't know where you live but, If you are near Roseville, Ca. I would be glad to take you to the park and let you try several lines and heads we use for stripers in the American and Delta.
PM me if you are interested.
Sturmer

[JerryInLodi]

David, you're not going to get an argument from me! I certainly agree I can land a striper on a seven weight or a large shad in heavy water in the Sac. At the same time, it's unnerving to have the cork squeaking and flexing as I load up that seven weight. After a while I begin to wonder, geez, is this whole thing going to fall apart after a few fish? Is the reel seat going to break loose, etc.

A heavier weight rod just allows more room for flex and mistakes, with a seven, I have to be really ready for the surges that a big fish sometimes makes since most of my rod flex is being used just to keep pressure on the fish. Since most of the stripers caught are under ten pounds, I find that I load an eight weight about 3/4 of the way down the rod, leaving that last foot and a half of rod and handle as a spring. I don't hear the cork squeaking and squirming in my hand during the heavy loading. If the fish is much heavier than ten pounds, I effectively have the same problems with my eight as I would a seven.

About 1993 Al Smatsky and I were exploring in Baja. On the first day of a two week camp I broke my ten weight and had to fish the next ten days with my nine weight. We were catching 20 plus dorado apiece each day. My nine weight held up all through the full camp but it worked awfully hard as did I. It would have been a much kinder two weeks if I had my ten.

Oh, and the twenty pound tippet is not so much for the fish, it's more for the rip-wrap, tulies and other things I seem to be able to stick a fly in. I use #20 especially on my LMB rods. Most of the time, even when really hung up in the heavy cover, I'm able to drag my popper out.

Leo just taught me how to make his furled leader system and they're so darn much fun to make that I switched everything I have with the exception of when I want to fish a short three foot leader down the rock faces for LMB on my 250 lines.

As far as casting, don't count light rods out. Sturmer has a six weight that fires T-14 at least 150 feet. It's not a cannon, it's a rocket launcher. Just plain scary!

Tell 'em about Larry's rod Sturm!

[Adam Grace]

Thanks for your added input guys.

For a couple of years I used my GLoomis 9' 7wt GLX rod with a 200 grain Airflo 30' sinktip with a high sink rates head, that system worked well with smaller clousers up to 1/0. I later progressed to the new (at that time) 250 gr SA Streamer Express line which I found cast those 1/0 clousers better due to the extra weight. I fished this setup on the American where I never hooked up with any striper larger than 6 pounds, but I had fun and that 7wt was not tiring to cast.

Later on when I started to fish the Delta more I purchased a powerful 8wt and I started to throw LC-13 permanently connected/spliced to a nice r. line. the extra power in the rod and extra weight in the line I could cast bigger more bushy wind resistant flies that would "push" more water. This setup tired me out more but it allowed me to fish a larger fly and potentially put more pressure on the fish. I wanted a beefier rod for those bigger Delta stripers to better fight them and offer them a bigger fly.

As far as fighting the striper on a 7wt or an 9wt IMHO, I think that a heavier rod makes fighting bigger fish for a beginner easier to apply good pressure. A lighter 7wt rod in the hands of a seasoned veteran could do that same amount of damage.

Stripers are so much fun on a fly rod that it doesn't matter what gear you use as long as you can deliver the fly to the fish and be able to land those feisty fish.

Another important part of your gear is sunglasses....you need to look good in your striper pictures 8) :lol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/flyguyag/fishing/deltacrop.jpg

A small striper caught on my last trip to the Delta, 2 years ago :oops:........it's been too long since I fished the Delta. It's too bad that I live farther away from that great fishery.

[Steelie-Stalker]

ok, i get it now. I think im going to go with a RIO shooting lines powerflex core in an intermediate. Then start out with a type 6 shooting head. I will mostly be fishing san luis and o'neill, and i think it will pay off to have interchangeable heads so i can fish different depths. Thanks So much for all your guys' help, especially Adam.

Steelie-Stalker

[Adam Grace]

You're welcome, I simply want another guy to get "hooked" on fly fishing, especially those fun, hard-fighting stripers. A shooting head system will work very well on San Luis.