It doesnt make a lot of sense...

[jbird]

To have a regulation where all wild fish must be released unharmed, yet bait is legal. Here on the rogue, spring salmon season was a complete bust. But as usual, we are seeing a fair return of summer steelhead. So all the anglers that missed out on the salmon are fishing for the steelhead. The regulations allow bait til the end of august.

Maybe I am oversensitive to the issue, but it makes no sense whatsoever to me to allow bait in a system that has a good number of fish that must be released unharmed. :(

Jay

[Finsane]

What does "Gods Riches At Christs Expenses" mean? Thanks in advance, FinSane.

[jbird]

Finsane

You have a PM

[David Lee]

Jay -

Nope ..... no sense at all . But then again , how often do the 'powers-that-be' make sense ??

David :(

[sculpin]

Like all things Jay, it's about the money. If there is enough of a problem this year with the Spring Salmon in the Rogue for them to close the season early, why leave it open above Elk Creek? It's all about economics/politics and not management. If they close the river to bait fishing, many people will quit fishing and they'll loose revenue. Remember, fly fishermen are a minority. Many people take their vacations in our area to fish. If the fishing is restricted to much they'll quit showing up. Since logging is shut down, tourism is about all the economy we have left. That and service jobs taking care of the retiring Baby Boomers from down South. The nice thing is, the fish seem to be doing OK in spite of it all. I think the fly fishermen fishing small dry flies and ripping the smolts do more harm overall.

Mark

[Adam Grace]

Sorry for the side note, Sculpin I love your signature at the bottom of your posts, very funny!

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

What is the law in CA?

Can you kill wild Steelhead in CA?

[jbird]

The nice thing is, the fish seem to be doing OK in spite of it all. I think the fly fishermen fishing small dry flies and ripping the smolts do more harm overall.

Good point Mark!

Its amazing how many fishermen in this area flyfish for smolts...with absolute knowledge of what they are and the ramafications of lip-rippin 50 smolts. They argue that its legal (which it is) and that makes it right. They shroud the truth by calling them trout...and theyll continue to do it cause its fun.
The rogue is not stocked with trout, 99% of the rainbows in there are steelhead smolt. Unfortunately, we dont have any half decent trout waters in this area to choose from. So the rogue becomes the top place to take the kids to catch "trout". It makes it a tough situation.
I dont know what effect trout stocking would have on the river. Do you guys have a trout stocking program on your anadromous rivers? ie. Trinity, american...?

Jay

[bubzilla]

They argue that its legal (which it is) and that makes it right.

Jay,

It is absolutely NOT legal during the period of time when it is the biggest problem. It's the jerks that are "fishing for winter steelhead" with size #16 blue winged olives and 5X tippet when the river is closed to ALL TROUT fishing that really piss me off. I would be in favor of summary execution for anyone found by the State Police doing that, but I'll settle for the ticket and a very slooooowwwww explanation to a few folks about how getting a life might be in order. Oh man....I'd really like to go off right now regarding some of my personal favorite offenders of the law in this regard, but I am going to show some restraint instead. But did I tell you about the 50 100lb. brook trout I caught on my new 'boo last week???? :roll: All on dries of course. :D

[sculpin]

They argue that its legal (which it is) and that makes it right.

But did I tell you about the 50 100lb. brook trout I caught on my new 'boo last week???? :roll: All on dries of course. :D



:D Nice job on the restraint Bubz :lol: :lol: For the rest of you trying to figure out what's going on, it's a local thing.

Mark

[bigtj]

I agree Jay. Although I've seen studies that suggest mortality rates for steelhead with bait are lower than trout, the problem I have is the endless "roe" cycle. Need to bonk a hen so you can have bait the next time you fish. Not a good thing. C&R should be artificial only.

[jbird]

Grant

Unfortunately, theres a huge loophole. When we ask the "prime offenders" why they are fishing that way when trout season is closed, they always smugly reply, " I'm fishing for steelhead". And they have been doing this for years. I am sure they tell the authorities (If they are ever even approached by them) the same story. " Oh yeah, I catch winter steelhead on bwo's every year". My guess the Game Officials would probably say, "Really? Wow, thats pretty cool!" Doh!!!


Jay

[Bruce Slightom]

Bill, SF of the Eel is the same, no kill on steelhead but bait is allowed. The guides had a fit when the no kill went into effect and that was one of the concessions. They claim that they can not catch fish without bait.

Would like to see that changed but have mixed feelings about restricting how people fish.

[WinterrunRon]

The only river in the state of CA where you can kill and retain a wild steelhead is the Smith River. Don't quote me, but I believe it's one a day, one in possession, 5 per year (or at least it was a year ago).

All usual steelheading methods are legal on the SF Eel, as long as the hook is barbless. And that river is watched by a local DFG warden through Stiener binocs very closely.

I don't belive there is, hasn't for some time or may never have been, a trout planting program on the American. Salmon and Steelhead only.

If you know I'm in error, please post a correction to my post.

Ron

[dtp916]

Ron, from what I know there are no trout in the American, they are all smolts and half-pounders. It appears the dam now has new pumps that produce a steady supply of cold water - which should improve the coldwater salmon/steelhead fishery. Stripers may or may not remain the same and I think Shad will definitely be negatively affected.

This is all stuff I have heard, from guys that fish the American on a weekly basis.

[Terry Thomas]

Have you ever been on the Trinity after they release the smolts and see the "fly fishermen" with their drys fishing for them. "Wow, we caught 50 steelhead today, all on drys." We read about it every year...at times on this board. Sometimes it's not about "sense," but ALL about "cents."
T.

[WinterrunRon]

That's funny, Terry, to hear some actually fish FOR them. I fished the Trinity last year quite a bit, and one frustrating day in October, I couldn't keep the da-gum smolts OFF my nymph. In any event, I didn't post my 20+ fish day of steelheading. :wink:

[sculpin]

Ron
The flyfishermen that I know of that target smolts call them 12" to 14" trout. It sounds better than calling them 8" fingerlings, which they really are.Then they blabber on and on about how the gear guys are screwing up the fishing. :shock: It's very hard for me to keep my mouth shut.

Mark

[jbird]

On the rogue, its actually pretty easy to avoid hooking them, The problem is, people who dont have any confidence theyre going to catch an adult fish, keep a little soft hackle on the point and swing it into the soft water, just to fend off a skunking. As you try to educate these people, theyll tell you its impossible to keep them off. The guys I usually fish with, fish in a way that we catch more adults than smolts. These other guys are getting like 100 smolts for every adult. I am not trying to criticize their ability to catch steelhead, I'm really not. They just dont realize that steelhead arent that hard to figure out. If your catching smolts, your not fishing for adults...and if youre fishing for adults, youre not catching smolts. (I may have a future in poetry? :D )And a skunking is a skunking...you dont put on a little soft hackle to make up for no adult fish.

And then of coarse, the bottom of the scum bucket are the guys who intetionally fish for the smolts...with dries...knowing full well they are the future of our steelhead run.

Jay

[bubzilla]

What are you doing talking to guys that fish for bait, Mark? :D You need to start keeping better company.

"[T]he bottom of the scum bucket are the guys who intetionally fish for the smolts...with dries...." Jay, you are indeed a poet. Well said.

[sculpin]

What are you doing talking to guys that fish for bait, Mark? :D You need to start keeping better company.

"[T].


I have to find out where the fish are hanging out some how. :D A few of them will still talk to me, even though I toss some flies. They always say "Why do you hang around with those fly Pr--ks that are always complaining about something". I have to go fishing with them every now and again just to prove I'm still OK. I guess I haven't made the full conversion yet because I don't feel dirty after fishing gear. Or having a rod in one hand and a beer in the other. :lol:

Mark

[WinterrunRon]

Jay,

The problem I had on the Trinity in October was that the water was under 300cfs and clear. This provided a wide birth of areas out from the shoreline for the smolts to hang out.

I did two things to try and avoid the smolts: 1. Larger nymph, much larger, and 2. I targeted deeper, swifter water towards the middle.

Every time the line moved to water the smolts could occupy, they tattered it and one would get hooked. Then I got irritated with them and used my two-handed rod and a large fly to swing. Every time the fly came across to shore in water the smolts could occupy, they'd hammer it too, but the actual hookups diminished due to the size of the fly. Most of the time thier mouth was too small for the fly I was using (I chose a large one on purpose). This worked for the most part, but them darn smolts are voracious!

Ron

[bubzilla]

Not with bait, Mark. FOR bait! 'Cause that's what an 8" smolt amounts to in terms of a trophy. Kind of like catching sardina all day. :lol: Oh, that's it....I'm takin' the 'boo to Loreto so I can catch sardina on dries. :roll:

[Jasonh]

One way to avoid smolts in swingin big traditional salmon and stelhead flies. Yeah, they might peck at it every once in a while but hardly ever get hooked.

On another note, bait should be banned to help some of our precious wild steelhead fisheries to recover. Gear guys can still throw their articial pink worms and spoons. Whats wrong with that.

As Brian Niska said on the steelhead special on the Thompson River, "Bait is for little fat kids!"

[sculpin]

Hey Bubz
My bad for misreading your post. It does read "bait" fishermen. Oh well, just another brain fart. I'll bet the Sardinas would out fight the finger lings.

Tristan
Where I fish I rarely catch anything but native fish and the same goes for the few smolts/fingerlings that are accidently hooked. That's why I'm so against the guys "Trout" fishing.

Mark

[bubzilla]

I agree 100 percent, Jason! Swinging big traditional salmon and steelhead flies is a good way to avoid hooking all fish! :D

And, killing hatchery smolt might be defensible in a somewhat unique, if not economically backwards, way of protecting wild fish, but the problem is you can't target just the hatchery fish. It's simple really: if you're catching a lot of smolt during a trip, stop whatever it is you're doing and move on.

[Covelo]

Bait is one of the many reasons that our fisheries are in decline. Specifically in California, it is one of the limiting factors on why the Eel River will never recover its Steelhead run.

I was going to stay out of this but this statement just begs for a reply. Where did you get the notion that bait is a limiting factor on the Eel River? The Eel River has so many other issues with water diversions at Pillsbury, fragmented and incomplete riparian recovery from the 1964 flood scouring leading to warmer water temps, erosion due to extensive logging 20+ years ago, and a huge introduced population of squawfish topping the list. Bait doesn't even register.

[nrthcsteel]

I was going to stay out of it to. But Covelo has it spot on about the SF eel. You should be happy to have smolts pecking at your flies. After all in a couple years these are the fish you will be targeting correct! On the eel at least in my experience I have far less catching,or nipping from smolts than on other rivers. And I fly fish for what its worth. Again I think there are way more issues leading to the decline of steelhead on the eel( and it may hold true for other rivers also) with bait being FAR down on the list. Kevin

[Darian]

I'm a bit confused but don't want to appear to be splitting hairs and it's not quite on point, here. :? :?

I concur with the point about the unintended side affects of using bait (finfish). However, the second sentence in the last part of the post states:

[Quote: It seems smart to me that if we do allow bait fishing, that we at least use native fish to a particular system....like Hitch instead of Shiners....]

CA Freshwater Regs appear to ban or restrict the use and/or transportation of finfish in specified waters. So, unless I'm mistaken, it's not a matter of choice whether we "....allow bait fishing,....". Is this just thinking out loud or.... :?: :?: :?:

[Covelo]

It may be splitting hairs again but squawfish were introduced into Lake Pillsbury not the lower Eel River. I also heard, though I have never gotten verification, that they were dumped into the lower river through an illegal water release, in winter 1986 I believe.

Stepping up on my non-native rant soap box again, it is interesting that the only reason these finfish are needed as bait is so that people can catch other non-native species, many of which are protected and managed by the DFG. Oh the irony.

I also do not believe that banning all bait is going to change anything. Without educating the public, you can make all the laws you want. Somebody released largemouth bass into the upper SF Eel River also, but they were not being used as bait.

The interesting thing about squawfish is that they are native to the Russian River drainage which used to have a large run of steelhead estimated in excess of 50,000 fish. Certainly the squawfish have changed the dynamics of the Eel River system though I doubt that they are a death warrant.

[Darian]

IMHO, sections of the F&G Reg's already appear to answer our concerns about using finfish that are not native to a particluar system or lake....

I see the issue here as one of law enforcement or lack of same. :( The same circumstance/problem has contributed to the illegal stocking of Pike in Lake Davis. :( This brings us around to something we've all agreed upon in the past; that is the lack of Warden (enforcement) staff at DFG. No easy answers here. The political will to address benefit/salary discrepancies between DFG enforcement staff and other law enforcement agencies doesn't seem to exist. Therefore, vacant warden positions outnumber those that are filled.

One alternative might be to transfer enforcement duties to the CHP and move the warden staff into that agency. That suggestion was offered/proposed by the commitee appointed by the Guv but not adopted. Lotsa opposition involved.

Sorry I drifted off on this..... :? :? :?

[sculpin]

Why not change the regulations to make the use of live bait in fresh water illegal. That is the way the regulations are in Oregon. I guess it would be like closing the door after the act though. No matter what the law is, someone will break it. We have a problem in Oregon with Johnny Bass Seeds introducing bass to all the premier Trout lakes around the state.

[jbird]

Mark

Where do night crawlers fit into the no live bait reg?

Jay

[sculpin]

Jay
The regulations say no live fish may be used or held to be used as bait except live bait may be used in the ocean, bays and tidewaters when taken from the waterbody they will be used in. Whew, that's a mouth full. I guess Garden Hackle (worms) are OK. Sheesh, who's gonna take the worms away from the kids? ( or me ) :D