June 5 on the Delta (wind)

[Richard]

Well, it LOOKED like it was going to be a perfect day. At 6:30 there was no wind, the water was warm, it was overcast. Sounds great right? :cry: By the time I got my boat on the water and started out there was a slight breeze, no problem. :? By the time I got to my fishing spot the wind had picked up a little, no major sweat. :-s By 9 AM it was blowing over 20 mph and I had all I could do to keep my boat in control with my 55 lb thrust trolling motor. :eek: By 9:30 it was getting worse and I gave up. :( A couple of strikes, but they were hard to detect with the wave action. :? If this keeps up I'm going to trade my boat in for a windsurfing outfit. ](*,)

[Hairstacker]

Hey Richard, sorry to hear it. It's bad enough when it's windy when you get there, but it's another thing entirely when it chases you off the water soon after you get started. :? And then there are those days when it's marginal at first but then turns into a perfect day. Well, hope you have better luck next time. Looking forward to pictures of some of your great bass again! 8)

[mikenewman]

Richard

They really put their heads down under that Cold Front. Like you, I fished hard from 5.00 am 'til 9.00 in sheltered areas for just 2 smallish fish: Nil desperandum :)

Mike

[JerryInLodi]

Guys, I fished Monday night with my wife. We fished to the leeward sides of levees, the leeward sides of tulle islands, etc. The wind was howling up until 8:30pm and then settled down to a strong breeze of about 10 mph. Even when the wind is chugging along at 20+ you can usually find enough cover in the eastern portions of the delta off Eight Mile Road to fish.

I've found that the mornings are just not producing unless you want to go subsurface. On Sunday morning I quickly picked up 10 LMB and one smallish striper, again, with the wind howling. I was throwing a Puglisi bluegill imitation on a type VI line stripped just over the weeds as slow as possible without getting hung up. I threw about 150 casts with a popper early in the morning prior to that and got nothing. I then went subsurface with the bluegill for the fish. I finished the morning with the popper again with another 150 casts for two very small rises. No fish. I was off the water by 10:30.

Monday's evening fishing was much more productive. I was driving the boat trying to give my wife first shot at the fish since she's never fished bass on top before. The wind was a hassle both for her casting and boat handling. I had to stay closer to the levees than I like.

She missed her first five fish using a weedless jurgler and then finally stuck a bass after I told her to show no mercy, stick that fish and haul it in! Her second fish was a 20 inch striper, lots of fun. She finished the night landing two more LMB, and missing probably another four or five.

I was playing around with a huge foam popper when I could cast which wasn't often between driving the boat with the trolling motor and coaching my wife. I didn't get a lot of strikes but did manage three fish to the boat, all over two pounds and lost another three, the first between three and four pounds and the last two, monsters at easily over five pounds each. I got the hook into all of these fish and I'm beginning to suspect the stinger hooks I'm using are just not stiff enough for big fish. I'm going to look for a stronger, stiffer hook.

Most evenings are producing a dozen or more fish in the boat with an equal number LDRed or just plain missed.

The topwater action starts about 1:30 but is very slow until 5-5:30pm when it starts picking up. It ends at almost full dark with the last hour the real winner.

[Richard]

I suspected that with all the wave action I could have gone subsurface for more fish. But I just prefer topwater and it's hard to get me to change. Even if I am not catching fish I can take occasional pride in a well placed cast, particularly in a 20+ mph wind. :shock:

I used to have a lot of luck in the mornings in the Delta. I sure hope that becomes the case once again as with my travel schedule afternoons and evenings are pretty much out for me. :(

[JerryInLodi]

Richard, I think the mornings will pick up for topwater during the summer and fall. The water temperatures are still not quite 70 degrees. The day's warming trend may be the switch that turns the fish on later in the day.

As far as accurate casts, I throw my sinking stuff into some pretty tight places, so accurate casts are necessary, whether top water or subsurface. Casting a subsurface fly and letting it sink into that alley in the weeds where you would normally cast a popper can be pretty productive. You start to strip and whaddaya know, there's a fish on!

[Big Dave]

Jerry , Ive noticed you keep changing the water temps for when the bass grab goes off. This is probably the thrid or fourth time over the past few months that youve done so ( not just here on Kiene's board either ) Why do you keep doing that ? Its confusing me.

Also , if the grab is no good until the afternoon , why is it all the tournaments and other bass anglers are out there in the early mornings ? It seems like there are always tournaments out there and Ive yet to see one where they start in the afternoon/evenings. I wonder what these guys know that we/you dont know. They must know something because they are getting some solid bags.

So confusing !

[JerryInLodi]

Big Dave, I don't understand your question. Are you talking about my fishing report on my website or my posts? If on my website, I try to post the temperatures I observe on the delta. I'll answer as best I can hoping I get it right.

As far as the temperature that turns fish on tio topwater action, if you read bass books, the almost universally accepted temperature for bass to become agressive is 70 degrees. However, on the Delta, as KD points out, some topwater action takes place at as low as 64 degrees.

What is equally important though is how steady the temperature is. If the delta temps are say, 73, and then in two days of heavy wind and overcast, the temperture drops three degrees, it is a turn off for the fish, even though the mythical 70 degree mark is still showing. On the other hand, if temperatures are 63 and there is a rapid rise in temperature to 68, it may spark an increase in topwater feeding, even though the temperature has not reached the magical 70 degree mark.

As far as the tournament bass guys knowing more than the fly guys, yup, they do! They also have a lot more tools. And they fish water with temperatures down into the 50's. They probably have ten or more ways alone to rig a rubber worm and a hundred or more rubber worms in different colors and sizes to fish with, and that's just worms. They have swim baits, crank baits, spinner baits, spoons, and on rare occasions do even fish some top water but not often. They also have a number of rods with different feels and different lines rigged up. They have multispeed reels to vary their retrieve as well as very stiff rods to do some flipping and finesse fishing. Almost all of their fishing is done subsurface and some of it is done relatively deep.

Trying to compare flyfishing for bass with tournament bass fishing is almost impossible. Subsurface we can do little more than cast and hand retrieve, usually down to about eight feet and that's only if the weeds are not too dense. We can't finesse fish the dense areas, and can't retrieve fast enough to represent some of the other presentations they use. We can't fish vertically as they do, sometimes fishing only feet away from the boat. The list of things they do that we can't do is pretty long.

As to the size of the fish, it's almost universally accepted that if you want lots of big bass, you fish subsurface, otherwise you'd see the tournament guys fishing topwater. They fish where the money is!

Having said all of the above, that does not mean that LMB fishing is out for the fly guy. We can have some success fishing subsurface using vaious retrieves in areas where we can get a fly down into the fish zone. We can approximate some finesse fishing if we can work from a very steady platform and want to spend the time. It's very slow work with a fly rod.

The big thrill fly fishing though is top water. Casting a hair popper close up to a bank and then using a chugging retrieve, all of a sudden to be attacked by even a two pound bass is heartpounding. If you're lucky enough to get a six pounder to go for a fly the fish will give a pretty good account of itself even after the grab. It might take a few seasons or more to get Big Moe, that ten pounder to come up but when you do, it will be worth it.

You pretty much are limited to fishing topwater when the fish are willing to hit a top water presentation. You can do some things to try to trigger a strike response as a preditor reaction from a fish that might be marginally keyed into topwater but, for the most part, it's fishing when the fish are willing.

The delta has been a late afternoon bite for bass lately. Yesterday, we fished from eleven till two before the first topwater grab and it was a long time till the second grab. We tossed some underwater stuff as well but couldn't more than a couple interested in those flies as well. The bite got progressively better as the evening moved on with the best bite coming on from about 8:15 till 9:00pm. The bite was never that great however and my guess is that the day's 30 mile an hour winds, the muddy shore lines, and the falling tide at dusk were not positive factors.

Like all fishing though, you never know what will happen until you are on the water. One day in August last year on a cooler day, I caught over 50 bass in three hours during mid day. Could I have predicted that in advance, no chance.

Hope the above helps.

[Sturmer White]

Jerry, It all sounds right to me. You know the fish will make liers out of us every time.
In my begginers class I was telling the class that trout in fast water will not move very far to the side to take your fly.
The next week one guy came to me and said, the fish moved clear across the river to take his flies.
The fish will make liers out of us every time.
:roll:

[mikenewman]

I am in my second full season of bass fishing and claim no status as an expert. These are the only facts that I know -
Last year my best fish weighed 8lbs. This year I have taken 4 fish between 5lb and 6.5lbplus 4 or 5 that topped 4lb and many more over 3lb.
All of my biggest fish have been caught in the morning (I seldom fish past noon) and all were caught in water temperatures substantially below 70f. (I have caught two 6lb+ fish at 57f)
I fish exclusively topwater and I fish 2 mornings per week on average. I catch enough subsurface lmb when striper fishing to know that it doesn't interest me. To those that do like to fish subsurface - Good for you! But it is clearly nonsense (by my experience) to suggest that topwater rarely produces quality fish. (Bobby Barrack is one of the Delta's most successful tournament guys and he and his partner fish topwater exclusively from May through Fall) Successful Topwater fishing does, however, require commitment as well as love of the game but the rewards are priceless!
There are many dynamics and factors that influence the Delta Topwater bite (Note: I say "Delta" 'cos it is a unique bass fishery and to my knowledge there are not yet any books that are specific to these waters) Tides, currents,weather conditions, water temps, moon phases, air pressure, boat traffic, bait movements; to name but a few. I'm sure that even subtle changes in these factors and the way they inter-relate can influence the bite significantly. There is no simple code for success (thankfully!)
Oh, one more fact that I am sure of: I wouldn't have caught a damn thing this year if I'd sat on my arse waiting for the water temperature to go up! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[JerryInLodi]

Mike, I agree with everything you say. As I said, there are no "rules". However I was speaking of consistancy. Some mornings the bite is on and lasts till noon. Sometimes you can't raise a fish even at daybreak. As I said, sometimes the bite goes on all day! Sometimes you can bring the fish up at 62 degrees. Sometimes they won't come up at 75. Right now the most consistant action seems to be in the late evening where you can expect from 12 to 20 or more grabs in an hour.

However comparing fly fishing to a tournament bass fisherman techniques is not a fair comparison. Yes, you can catch some large fish topwater with a fly rod but the day you can go out and get a five fish, forty pound bag, then you'll have taken top water fly fishing to a whole new level. And then go out and do it again the following day and then the next as well. It will be time to buy that 300 hp monster and join the million dollar circuit.

The tournament winner at Clear Lake broke 110 pounds for three days fishing. I don't believe a single fish was caught top water regardless of rod.

[Hairstacker]

Ok Mike, now it's your turn to spill the beans. :D Were there factors common to those four fish that ran over 5lbs, such as time of morning, type of cover or location (e.g., bankside, tule island, etc.), style of retrieve, etc.? Also, have you generally found daybreak significantly better than the rest of the morning? (Really curious about your take on this, as I always sleep in. :lol: )

As an aside, I too generally look at 70 degrees for consistent, aggressive topwater action and am wondering how you're targeting them on top at 57F? :shock:

[mikenewman]

Mike

All the beans have already been spilled in previous posts. My MO is the one taught me my KD - nothing new to add. What we are talking about here is differences in experiences, expectations and confidence. My experiences last year and this give me the confidence to fish topwater in the cooler temp ranges. I don't contend that 57f is ideal but I do know that it's worthwhile and certainly once we are into the 60's it's game on.
I don't think in terms of the topwater bite as being "on" or "off". Sometimes it's easier than others but that's in the nature of fishing. What I know is that the majority of my bigger fish (5lb and over) have come when the bite has been challenging rather than easy. It doesn't bother me to go a few hours in the Spring without a strike 'cos I know there is the potential for a good fish to shatter the quiet! So, when the fishing is easy I fish hard and make the most of it and when it's challenging I fish hard and make the most of it :) Either way my results are consistent enough for me!

As for the dawn bite, again it varies. Charlie Gonzales and I shared a 5.30 start one Friday and it was v quiet despite seemingly great conditions. I went back on the Monday to the same area and the bite was amazing. (What was consistent was the water temp which was the same at 68f) What I love is the low light conditions, the company of beaver and otter, the usually calm conditions and the fact that Wakeboard Dude is still at his slumber.
As for the gear guys, it is a fruitless task to compare ourselves with the top pro's. I admire those guy's knowledge and skills immensely but I have no need to measure my success against theirs or anybody else's for that matter.
All I am seeking to counter is the suggestion that Topwater is some sort of marginal tactic that is only appropriate when the fish are willing to throw themselves at the bug and at certain "trigger" temperatures. I know that it is a highly effective system of gently delivering an attractive mouthful into the nooks and crannies of deep cover and that I can do that from April through October with good results and - most importantly - HUGE FUN :D

Cheers
Mike

[JerryInLodi]

Mike, I hope I didn't imply that topwater is a marginal technique!

Looking at my post, I thought I did just the opposite. However Big Dave asked about it in comparison to tournament fishing. In that context, it is only one of many techniques that the angler uses and one he probably uses least. In fact I tried to state that topwater with a fly rod is a thrill! See my quote below.

"The big thrill fly fishing though is top water. Casting a hair popper close up to a bank and then using a chugging retrieve, all of a sudden to be attacked by even a two pound bass is heartpounding. If you're lucky enough to get a six pounder to go for a fly the fish will give a pretty good account of itself even after the grab. It might take a few seasons or more to get Big Moe, that ten pounder to come up but when you do, it will be worth it."

And, again as to temperature, it has also been my experience that fish on the delta will sometimes take topwater down to about 64 degrees if other conditions are right. However, if you read some of the literature, the "books" say 70 degrees. But there are NO rules as you have found, catching fish in water as cool as 57!

For myself, I've never fished LMB when the temperatures are below the mid 60's. There are enough stripers around at that temperature that I'm keyed in on them and pick up LMB only as an incidental catch so I'd take your cold water experiences on the delta as gospel.

As an aside, the water measured 72 degrees last night and the fishing was outstanding. Sturmer must have landed well over 18 and missed another dozen. I fell behind him but someone has to drive the boat! The action began in ernest about 5:30 and continued on till 9:00pm. We also ran into a giant school of juvenile stripers (16-20 inches) at dark. They were ripping the surface chasing shad. Sturmer stuck one on his bass popper and I grabbed my striper rod and stuck one on a bluegill fly but it was too dark to tie on the right flies.

Tonight through Friday night look to be outstanding with only light winds predicted and warm, 72 or more degree water and otherwise stable conditions.

If you get out in the mornings I hope the warm water and stable conditions help with the morning bite as well. I hope you post your results.

[Hairstacker]

So, when the fishing is easy I fish hard and make the most of it and when it's challenging I fish hard and make the most of it

I admire your perspective! And I'm sure your positive attitude about not being bothered by a "few hours in the Spring without a strike" has also been a significant factor, among others, in your success -- like many, I too believe "confidence" coupled with "persistence" are often enough the significant factors that turned a lousy day for me into one to be remembered. Of course, they also sometimes just make for a longer day. :lol:

This discussion makes me wish I had taken water temperatures last October/November. I remember fishing topwater exclusively for LMBs until the action started trailing off with the colder water temperatures until one day when I just could not get a fish to hit topwater at all. It effectively marked the end of the topwater LMB season for me, and I switched to Clousers and starting catching them again. Clearly (at least to me :D ), there's a temperature line that gets crossed and it's just a debatable question as to where that line exists in the Spring relative to acceptable levels of consistent topwater action (which, of course, we each have to define for ourselves).

As far as the topwater bite being "on" or "off," I've used those terms to denote those periods when the fish clearly (and often visibly) become very active on the surface, where the action is often fast and exciting. An example is what Jerry just posted, where he noted "the action began in ernest about 5:30." Where I usually fish, I've noted there's often a fairly discernible starting and stopping point to such a period, when you can often actually see the fish breaking the surface up and down the waterway. That's not to say you didn't catch any fish outside this timeframe, but clearly the fish were much more active and, yes, more easily caught then.

I don't think any of us would disagree with the fun factor of topwater LMB fishing. After all, who could remain indifferent to their bass bug disappearing into a huge toilet flush strike from below? Or a fish that leaves the water completely to strike their bug from above? Or a fish that hits a fast topwater retrieve multiple times during a single cast? Or a fish that hones in from 10 feet away at warp speed to maul their bug? :D

[KD]

OK, i have to bite on this...i'll try to not write a book here...:-)

I have now fished in 2 tournaments with flyrods. It is easy to think that these guys know it all. It's easy to think that the "book" is right and it's backed up by what all of the conventional guys say. Therein lies the problem as i see it.

As Mike Newman, i was into topwater fish very early this year with temps hovering the 60* mark and below. Heck, clients have caught LMBass in Dec. while topwater striper fishing...56*water. As stated before, my reference for water temps is 60-62*. That is when i find the bite really becomes consistent. You can catch fish below that mark too. And i'm usually fishing before it hits 60*. Hit some nice early season weather and you'll be into fish. That 60-62* temp is when the place starts "waking up". This is when you start to see damsels starting to hatch. It's an indicator, thats all.

Now, back to my opening paragraph..

When myself and John Sherman entered our first tournament(team) we fished topwater all day. We were culling fish by 6:30am. Thinking we were on a roll, spirits were high. However, we missed a number of good fish and lost a big fish right at the boat from a mis attempt(me) at lipping it. Had we had a net and put that fish in the boat we would have jumped our overall weight by around 7-8lbs with just that fish. Not to mention the other nice(smaller)fish we missed earlier. We also very well could have been in the money(paid out 5 places) on a big fish option. This one fish would have launched us into the top half if not the top one third of the teams entered. This tournament had some west coast heavy weight tournament pros. The likes of Mike Reynolds, Dee Thomas, Dave Gliebe, etc... We were in a respectable position and because this was our first event ,the rookie factor got us and we missed on a lot of opportunity. We ended up low in the field. It was one heck of a learning experience.

Another team event a few weeks ago i did with my friend Steve(conventional angler-fishing on his bass boat) played out similar. We were culling fish early(7fish limit). We were culling 1.5lb-2.5lb'rs. I was catching most of the fish and Steve was throwing Spooks and plastics. He then asked to use one of my flyrods. His first cast on a different bank and he blows up and lands a nice 3.75lbr. A few casts later I blowup and land a 4lbr. Wow, guess what...our weight just jumped by almost 8lbs! and our avg size just just went up by a big margin....ok, i'm starting to see how this tourney game works...

Moving on to a different locale, Steve still using the flyrod(he fished the fly the rest of the day), blows up a fish that looked to me around 8-10lbs. The fish launched completly out of the water so we saw its size. Steve not being well versed with the flyrod lost the fish. That fish alone would have positioned us way up in the top tier of teams. And, would have most likely cashed a check on the big fish option. However, we ended up the day right in the middle of the pack. Keep in mind with both of these events we were throwing topwater flies all day. All it takes is a few nice fish and things change dramatically...

My point?...well if you think like a conventional bass angler you'll fish like a conventional angler. But, If you fish like a flyfisher, who knows what can happen?. As Mike Newman suggests, we fish topwater with confidence and look for that opportunity. We do topwater better than they can. If the conventional guys could present as well as we can with the flyrod and topwater patterns they would be doing it. Most of the conventional bass guys don't have the confidence in topwater as some others do.
Bobby Barrack is the most obvious exception and most likely why he has gained notoriety amongst his peers. He knows the topwater game and is good at it.

Don't be surprised to see some of the conventional guys with a flyrod on their boat for topwater presentations at some point. It can be another tool for them and if they can be shown that it may very well be the best tool for the job(topwater)and an advantage for that application then they will be using it. There are new flyrods hitting the market by some major mfg's that are tournament legal size.

If you approach the Delta fishery drawing from experiences of those in the conventional community then you will always be playing "catch up" with them. I will say(and i preface this by saying i'm using a broad brush here..so hopefully this doesn't offend some here)most of the conventional bass anglers i've seen and know are followers not innovators.

As Mike Newman mentioned, there are a lot of variables to consider on any given day. Sometimes the fish just aren't eating well and it doesn't matter what technique or tackle you are using, topwater or subsurface. However, if one plays to the strengths of the fly presentation(topwater) than one will aquire the confidence and skill in that presentation and start playing that game at a high level. Subsurface fishing with flies is slow and tedious work. I have done a lot of it. I now choose to play to the strengths of the flyrod instead of trying to mimic the conventional guys. We can present to and catch as big of fish with flies. Doing it subsurface is fine but does put you in a disadvantage due to it being a slower process. Size of the fish is not the issue, the conventional guys can simply work more water in a day and thus more opportunity when pitching and flipping and that is what most of them do on the Delta. Distant targets might be the exception to this.

The Delta is a complicated fishery but it is also one of the best topwater opportunities in the world. Playing to the strengths of the flyrod will get it dialed in. There is a growing handful of guys that are doing just that.

As one of my good friends says...were not playing PeeWee golf here...this is the final round at Augusta!

[JerryInLodi]

KD, really well said. I think you put the whole topic in proper perspective and said it much better than I. Especially the comparison of top-water vs. subsurface. One is a thrill, the other is tedious work!

As far as tournaments, I suspect, like you, that in that sport, like most others, there are just a few leaders and the rest followers. The top pros are truely amazing though. I find it incredible that these guys can come to totally unfamiliar water, and tidal in nature at that, do a one to two day pre-fish and then end up with a three day catch of fish averaging 7.3 POUNDS!!! Then go on to the next location, and again read the water and place in the top ten doing the whole thing over again. Not only that but they consistantly beat the "regulars" who are fishing their home waters.

[Hairstacker]

Interesting discussion! :D

I would add that I think one's approach to the fishery also influences one's paradigm and perspective. I recently mentioned this before but, fishing out of kayak, I have no choice but to adapt to the micro-environment I'm fishing, as opposed to the many more options available to a motored boat user with its far greater range. Simply put, I can't just pick up and motor off to another location if I run out of a particular type of cover I prefer or where I suspect the topwater fishing is best. Confined to territory I'm able to cover in a kayak, I simply have to adapt to what I'm presented with.

Where I normally fish, there is a limited amount of productive bank water, for example, within the territory I can cover in the time available. That means, I have to be very aware of and pay very close attention to other possible opportunities and the best tactics to use accordingly. Sometimes this means going subsurface.

For example, I've mentioned before an occasion when water starting coming into the Delta through one of the pipes, stirring up a lot of sediment. I could visibly see bass busting baitfish in the churned up water. They simply would not hit my topwater bug but I immediately caught several in quick succession as soon as I switched to a Clouser. (By the way, as soon as the water stopped flowing through the pipe, the bite stopped abruptly.)

Another example is when I noticed bass busting baitfish all along the upstream side of a rock wall the water was flowing over. I just could not get them to hit topwater but, as soon as I switched to a Clouser, I caught several bass in fairly quick succession.

If I were to ignore those subsurface opportunities given the small territory I could cover out of the kayak, I would have ended those days with fewer fish brought to hand.

Likewise, I simply cannot deny to myself based on experience that in especially cold water, I will not do as well or at all in a relatively confined area if I stubbornly confine myself to a strictly topwater approach. Perhaps it is characteristic of where I normally fish, but I have found this to be true too many times. And, as I've mentioned repeatedly, in a kayak you simply cannot go searching elsewhere for the best topwater fishing available under the circumstances.

Thus, in my case, I truly don't think of it as a fly guy adapting conventional approaches and tactics. Rather, I think of it as a fly guy adapting to the specific requirements presented by the situation and circumstances. Although I vastly prefer topwater bass bugging over any subsurface approach, I try to maintain a broader perspective in order to stand better ready to adapt to the micro-environment requirements imposed by the limited range of kayak flyfishing. Sometimes that means going subsurface which, by the way, I don't personally find tedious. But, with all that said, you'll still find me fishing topwater 95%+ during the months of May through October. Anyway, just another take on things. :D

[JerryInLodi]

Mike, sorry, I wasn't really thinking of streamer type fishing when I was talking subsurface and said tedious. In that type of fishing, the grab is almost as much fun as the a fish busting the surface as we all know from striper fishing.

I was thinking more of the "finesse" fishing of worm and other imitations cast and let slowly sink or barely moved across the bottom. In those cases, especially using something like a fly rod where it's hard to maintain contact with the "fly" it is difficult and, yes, sometimes tedious to me, almost like bait fishing. The heavy amount of weed in the delta doesn't help as well. Nevertheless, it certainly can be challenging and very productive and I do it when it seems that's the best way to produce results.

[mikenewman]

Mike

You need to expand your range!

Check this out ...
http://www.uniquespecialtygift.com/exmoinpolo.html

Cheers
Mike

[Hairstacker]

Mike, I like the cupholder in that obviously deluxe version, since mine doesn't have one, but I'm thinking two joysticks would be kind of unwieldy -- you didn't happen to see a deluxe version that utilizes just one joy stick did you? :lol:

[mikenewman]

Huh! Picky, picky, picky :roll:
I bet if it had been RED it woulda been PERFECT
:lol: