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dryflychico
05-17-2007, 01:07 AM
High everyone, I am somewhat new to this area and am looking to go to the Middle Fork of the American for some trout hunting tomorrow (Thursday).

I have never been there, never seen the water, and haven't heard much about it other than it is a fairly good place to fish.

Just curious if anyone had any advice.

Especially interested in what flies would be the best to use. Like to throw dries but ususally have a dropper on so I don't miss the monster that doesn't want to hit the surface.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated (including if you think there are better fishing opportunities within a similar distance to Roseville).

Kind of off track but that big crazy guy on the Yuba above Hwy 20 has actually thrown rocks down on me and my fishing comrades on more than one occasion. He is definately off his rocker and could do some damage so everyone be careful (not to say it ever has or will stop me from fishing up there).

Thanks for any advice :D
dryflychico

dtp916
05-17-2007, 10:02 AM
I'd stick with a caddis or parachute dry and a golden stone dropper - its been pretty good for me with that. I was lucky to find some risers and catch a few nice fish on an Adams last time, in the midst of a caddis hatch. Golden stones are probably the most important bug they have and I think they have several other stonefly species getting up to a #2! I've seen their shucks and cases, but never a live bug that big.

Mid Fork is a beautiful river, I always like getting out there. 8)

dryflychico
05-17-2007, 01:39 PM
for the advice James. i should have asked sizes also but I assume 12-16 would be the correct range.

Not really sure about the protocol on this site but I'm sure reports are appreciated. I am going up there in a few minutes and will definately post the results of my trout hunting (just a term I like, I don't actually hurt the fish :? ) experience.

The Yellow Labs are getting excited they see the fishing gear.

Thanks again James, :evil:
Dryflychico AKA Josh

Katz
05-17-2007, 02:15 PM
Good luck Josh. Looking forward to the report.

Katz

cmaday
05-17-2007, 09:33 PM
Hey dryflychico,

I also live in the roseville area and have been interested in the middle fork of the american. Could you please post in your report where on the middle fork you hit and how long it took you to get there. I'm looking for a place I can hit before I have to go teach. Fishing is a great relaxer before dealing with middle school kids, especially this time of year. It would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Cory

Ed Wahl
05-18-2007, 05:27 AM
Welcome aboard Josh. Love the American River Drainage. Never got around to the Middle Fork though. Reports are definitely encouraged here, but you can be a bit vague on the board. Tons of people check this board for info, not just fly fishers so it helps to be a bit discreet. I normally give out specifics off the board, p.m.'s and email, or better yet, take someone up personally to show them. Ed

dryflychico
05-22-2007, 10:48 AM
First off let me apologize for not posting this quicker, too much happening in life right now but anyway here is the report.

I got some topo maps and hit the Middle Fork of the American a ways from Auburn back on some 4x4 roads (could not access where I went w/o 4-wheel-that’s pretty vague, right Ed ). My fly hit the water about 5:00 P.M. and I fished for about 3 hours. It started nice, I caught a 16” bow on my 4th cast (had a Parachute Adams #14 and #12 Golden Stone dropper) he hit the golden stone. I missed a good fish about 5 minutes after this (also the golden stone) and then didn’t get another strike for about 1˝ hours. I probably should have changed up my dropper more but was really just rotating my dry’s (stimulators, march brown, elk hair caddis, adams, BWO, and a couple of others). Did not have any success with the dry’s until about 7:30. I was above a nice riffle and threw a cast about as far as I can with my 8 ˝ -5 wt. and had a whale (18-20”) hit my March Brown dry unfortunately he hit it so quick I didn’t have good enough line control and only had him on for a minute. Missed a couple other strikes on my dry and dropper over the next ˝ hour and then got hungry and took off for the night.

Overall it was a beautiful area (not a soul to be found back there) and the water was really nice. From the report posted by the guide service it looks like they had a hell of a lot more success than me, going to try and get back up there in the next week or two and prepare a better selections of fly’s before I go (including the guides suggestion ).

Thanks everyone for all the advice,
Dryflychico (AKA Josh)

Ed Wahl
05-22-2007, 08:45 PM
Excellent report Josh. I was up a trib to the Rubicon over the weekend and most of mine took a big stonefly nymph. Only saw one adult which means the good dry fly action is still yet to come. The north fork is well worth checking out too. Very remote, nice fishies. Ed

Mik
05-23-2007, 08:17 PM
Do you run into any rattlers while you are out there?

dryflychico
05-24-2007, 03:24 PM
but I drove my Jeep right down near the water where it was kind of sandy. I can imagine back on the mountain there are a ton of them. I'm used to rattlers I used to spend a ton of time on the N. Fork of the Feather, way off the beaten path and would literally come on 1 or 2 a night. I would make my labs walk ahead of me to trigger them and figured if they got struck I could carry them out and drive but if I got hit (and venom flew) we could be in a lot of trouble.

ED,

I definately want to get over to the Rubicon or some of the tributaries, very soon.

Dryflychico (AKA Josh)

JT
05-24-2007, 11:35 PM
I used to fish the Middle Fork quite a bit with my dad. We saw a lot of rattlers up there. One evening I stepped on one while walking back to camp. I was extremely lucky to have escaped unharmed. I now carry a Sawyer snakebite kit in my chest pack. It doesn't take up too much room, being about the size of a medium fly box. If you fish alone alot, like me, you may want to look into one.

Bill Carnazzo
05-24-2007, 11:38 PM
I fish and guide the Middle Fork drainage area. There are many places to fish, and many small streams tributary to the MF American. You should get a Tahoe National Forest map and take a look at the river and its tribs, and then decide where to go. The main middle fork is a boat fishery with the exception of a few access points that allow for wade fishing. You might try Mammoth Bar (good access) and/or Driver's Flat. Both are on the main middle fork. Be careful wading--the flows will fluctuate in the afternoon at both of these places due to rafter flows released from Oxbow. As of now the best flies would be stonefly imitations--both goldens and Pteronarcys. There are small caddis hatching in the afternoons also. Sometimes a size 12 Parachute Adams will take fish. For small nymphs I use a red Copper John (#14) or a #16 Swimming PT with bead head and flash back. Good luck.

dtp916
05-27-2007, 12:27 PM
How do the private property laws work on the MF American?

My buddy and I were asked to leave because we were "trespassing."

We were both in the water, and well below the high water mark. This guy came out of nowhere, claims he owns the rocks on the river bottom, and said we were trespassing and he was going to have us arrested if we didn't leave now.

I told him that we weren't on his land and I don't think its possible to own the river bottom of the MF. Guy was really rude even though I had no problem leaving, and didn't see one sign on the way in.

JT
05-28-2007, 01:54 PM
In Utah, landowners own the river bottom, but I didn't think that was the case in California.

Rob
05-28-2007, 06:46 PM
Do you run into any rattlers while you are out there?


YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS !!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Rob
05-28-2007, 06:49 PM
In Utah, landowners own the river bottom, but I didn't think that was the case in California.

From what I understand in California !!! :?:
If it's considered Navigable then the property line is the high water line .
Otherwise its the middle of the river .

dtp916
05-28-2007, 10:52 PM
In Utah, landowners own the river bottom, but I didn't think that was the case in California.

From what I understand in California !!! :?:
If it's considered Navigable then the property line is the high water line .
Otherwise its the middle of the river .

I guess my question is, is the MF American below Oxbow navigable water???

hookedupanglers
05-29-2007, 06:05 AM
How far below oxbow were you? If you were all the way down to Horseshoe bar, then the guy will try to mess with you. They own a ton of land down there and are being tough this year. A new guy has taken over the lease and dosnt want anyone fishing on his property.

Bill Carnazzo
05-29-2007, 09:56 AM
Private property laws vary depending on where you are fishing. Where were you at the time you were told you were trespassing? If it was near the tunnel below Oxbow, there are some big issues there.

dtp916
05-29-2007, 11:40 AM
I was well below Oxbow, where the river went from rapids into a long deep pool. Sheer rock on the river right and cobblestone beach on river left. This pool was DEEP and the rapids were at least Class III. After this the river flowed straight for a long time.

The guy we ran into was older with white hair and full beard, said he owns the property of riverfront access to the MF American for 7 miles and that he owns the rocks on the bottom, therefore I was on "his" land. He could not emphasize "HIS" land enough :lol: i asked him about the other side and he said it was private property as well.

All i wanted to do was fish for a few hours at this new spot i haven't been before. I had no problem leaving and tried to apologize.

Only problem was they raised the water on the way back and we had to swim across :? Luckily it was very hot that day 8)

hookedupanglers
05-29-2007, 12:06 PM
The water flow is now on the summer time weekend outflow. This means that from 7:00 to 9:00 they will raise it to around 1000 cfs. The will hold it for atleast 3 hrs and then back it off as needed for the power use. It sounds to me like you ran ito the new guy at horeshoe bar. the whole deal with him is kind of touchy right now. If i hear of anything getting resolved, i will post it for you guys.

dtp916
05-29-2007, 05:13 PM
Thanks for the replies, guys. I knew that Walt Stevens was wrong and I told him so and it really pissed him off. His friend/caretaker didn't say anything when I called him out, but Stevens insisted that he owns every damn stone, bug and speck of dirt for 7 miles.

My buddy and I walked down from Oxbow, mainly on river left until I saw a "No Trespassing" sign and then I switched sides right before a nice run that produced several willing rainbows to deeply-drifted nymphs.

Bill, you are right about them having no life and patrolling the area. The whole time I was thinking, "How the hell did this guy find us in the middle of the forest and have the time and energy to come down here and give us his speech about HIS land..." :lol:

The main thing that bugged me was that we were in the water, far from the high water mark and he's bitching about trespassing. We even picked up trash we found on the way down and didn't even get a thank you for cleaning up HIS land.

I could've easily walked below the high water mark all the way down there.

bonish
05-31-2007, 05:49 PM
What side of the river were you on? Because I think on one side, one cannot "legally" access the Horseshoe Bar property, even with a navigable designation. Of course, that's the same situation as the Yuba above Hwy 20. It's virtually vertical and the water is deep. Generally, courts have ruled the "median high water" mark is where permanent vegetation begins/ends, but of course, all cases are different.

In any instance, watch those flows, they can rise rapidly at any time during the day. I got caught a couple of years ago in the middle of the river, made a wading mistake, went for a long ride and swim, and almost ended up a statistic. Quite a scary experience, though Joe Shirshac tells me it was nothing compared to some of his crazy adventures.

I'm sure you've read Bill's article on the MFA in Nor Cal Fly Fisher. If not, check it out as it explores the river and issues surrounding access.

mr. 3 wt.
06-01-2007, 12:57 PM
This may be an issue for the higher courts. The best thing to do is just stay out of the horseshoe bar area. It's only 7 miles of a river that is, at least 50 miles long or better. . I, for one, don't like it when somebody tresspasses onto my land or land that I have been given permission to be on and will let them know that there can and will be reprecussions. Until the courts say otherwise, save yourself the headache and the landowners a headache and don't tresspass. Period.

BenFishin
06-01-2007, 07:53 PM
James,

I am sorry you had a bad experience, unfortunately you were trespassing onto Walt's property and he does own several miles of river on both sides. I can supply you with APN numbers and you can look it up if you're still not sure. If Walt was rude, it's because there are many folks coming down there without total disregard of private land ownership. Quite a few folks have been cited for refusing to leave and there has even been an a couple arrest.

Although it's possible to enter this property while wading during low flows, its virtually impossible to continue without trespassing because of the deep channels and steep banks. It's easy to get stuck on the property because of the way the flows are spike. People who continue to do this knowingly are doing so without regard of property ownership. It's too bad that industry professionals are setting this precedent and encouraging folks to do the same.

Furthermore, it is an incorporated patented mining claim as it's been for well over a hundred years. The property has many dangerous tunnels and other obstacles, historical artifacts and items of value. It's in the best interest of the owners not to allow people to trespass considering all the liability issues as well.

For you to say these folks don't have a life is not fair and immature, the're just down there protecting their land. I'm sure you would do the same

If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me

Thanks

Ben

dtp916
06-03-2007, 02:51 PM
For you to say these folks don't have a life is not fair and immature, the're just down there protecting their land. I'm sure you would do the same


:lol: :lol: Life is NOT fair, Ben, and I could not disagree with you more. If someone is patrolling their land non-stop I would absolutely say he has no life and that he is overly paranoid. If someone was fly fishing on my property i would say: 1. Have you caught anything? If so, on what fly and 2. Well guys this is actually private property and unfortunately you are trespassing and need to leave....Not demanding an immediate evacuation of the area and threatening arrest and prosecution which is exactly what i got from Walt Stevens. I think people freak out over land ownership - if I'm not damaging or degrading their property or endangering their or my life, there is no reason to be rude unless you got a stick up your ass.


He patrols the property, or has his caretaker do, all the time--apparently no life outside that.

I wasn't the first one to say it, and I completely agree with what Bill said. I could give a shit if he wants to "protect" his land - thats BS, he was being a horse's ass, unlike his caretaker/paparazzi taking pictures of my buddy and I. I was very understanding and apologetic, as I have mentioned before, and had NO problem leaving whatsoever. If I HAD saw a sign - like I did on the other side of the river - I wouldn't be fishing there.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of other places I can fish in California so I really don't give a damn about Stevens and his land - The fishing wasn't THAT great and its definitely not worth getting arrested or cited. I will go somewhere else, no sweat 8) 8) 8)

mr. 3 wt.
06-03-2007, 04:30 PM
Like always, there is more to the story than what meets the eye. From my understanding, there have been others down there that were not as friendly as you and actually threatened the caretaker with bodily harm. That shouldn't be taken lightly. How would you like to be threatened on your own land? Perhaps he shouldn't have been so abrasive but everyone has a bad day. Now that the word is getting out that it is a private area, responsible folk can oblige by the law and stay off of their land.

midger
06-04-2007, 12:18 PM
Now that the word is getting out that it is a private area, responsible folk can oblige by the law and stay off of their land.

If he was attempting to enforce something he had no "legal" right to enforce, who was being irresponsible? If as Mr Carnazzo said California law stated:

The river is classified as a "navigable" river under Calif. law. Once that classification attaches to a river, the consequences that flow from it are:
1. The water is owned by the state (i.e., the people of the State of California);
2. The state has an access easement for recreational purposes (including fishing) across the rocks on the bottom of the river, and to a point on the shore where the "mean historical high water mark" is located--which is not always easy to determine but we know for sure that it is definitely somewhere out side of the water line; and
3. The adjacent landowner does own the land to the middle of the river, but the title is subject to the easement mentioned above.



I'd say the landowner was being irresponsible in this case if the above is true. And yes, a court case is probably what it will take to resolve the issue, and yes, there will probably eventually be one on this water as well as other waters all over the Western States. Many access issues are brewing already over these same concerns. It isn't just about his 7 miles, but all the others with the same access issues trying to enforce their interpretations of what the law allows.

I don't know him, have no dog in this fight, but have "dogs" in fights in other states now.

mr. 3 wt.
06-04-2007, 03:13 PM
You step out of the water, your on land, private land. Bill is not the law or a law abider as I see it. Re-read Ben's post, he has it right. People have been, are and will be arrested for trespassing on private land, period. Why can't folks see it for what it is and OBEY the law. I do know the area and there are many areas that are impossible to wade through and you must hike overland onto private property to get anywhere. I am not arguing that the river is the state's or not, but the land isn't. Until things change, that is the way it is going to be.

midger
06-04-2007, 04:30 PM
Guess they'll just have to float it then. Is that okay? :D

flyfshrmn
06-04-2007, 04:55 PM
Does anyone have a reference or a printout of the interpretation of the law regarding stream access and trespassing? I doubt that what's been written here has any legal weight, but there must be a published legal opinion or court ruling on this somewhere.

mr. 3 wt.
06-04-2007, 05:54 PM
Guess they'll just have to float it then. Is that okay? :D

Damn right that is OK. Good luck though. Many class 4 and 5's in the area. Floating without gear is one thing but with gear it may end up in the river.

The problem with the area Tristan is that there are a lot of places down there that are pretty much impossible not to walk on the private land. Shear cliffs, deep swift water and major rapids. The river bed is narrow, bushes right down to the water. And you guys are right, this subject is been beaten pretty good. Just don't want to see any of you gents in the pokey.

flyfshrmn
06-07-2007, 04:21 PM
Thanks for posting the link. didn't even think to google it (sound of hand slapping forehead)

bg

GBFS
06-28-2007, 02:00 PM
The property being discussed here has been leased by Granite Bay Financial Services. It covers about 7 miles of the Middle Fork of the American River, beginning just below Oxbow Dam on both sides of the river and into the middle of the riverbed. Since taking over the property a number of “No Trespassing” signs have been posted where the property begins. A private access, catch and release fly-fishing club has been established and the property is now being patrolled by security for trespassers. Sadly, we have already had to make arrests on those who have refused to respect private property laws.

Unlike the Lower Yuba River, The property on the Middle Fork of the American River in this section is completely private. The laws pertaining to private property on this section of river is similar to the Truckee River where the San Francisco Casting Club is located. You may float through our property but you can’t get out and fish or walk onto the river below the high water mark.

Currently the membership is full however we have a waiting list and you are welcome to sign up if you are interested in joining the club. If you are interested please mail Granite Bay Financial Services P.O. Box 2705 Granite Bay, CA 95746

Tight lines

GBFS

dtp916
06-28-2007, 09:24 PM
You CAN fish the section of the Truckee in the SF fly caster's section as long as you stay below the high water mark.

The section below Oxbow is considered navigable according to the state of CA...Honestly this really pisses me off, as it is quite clear that a person - or club - cannot own the river/river bed on a CA river.

I look forward to the political and legal battle that overturns this BS that is happening there.

mr. 3 wt.
06-29-2007, 06:12 AM
Just to retouch what was said a few posts ago. I agree with the highwater statements. The deal with the mid frk of amer is that there are areas, many of them, that it is impossible to stay below the highwater mark period. There is even a section where there is a tunnel in which the water flows. You tell me how you are gonna wade or stay within highwater mark through there. If you have ever been there you would know that particular area is impossible to do either. This is just one example of two or three spots that I know of that it is not possible to get through or around. Again, to avoid conflict or arrest, you must obey the law and stay off their land. If you must fish the area, take a raft down through the property and stay within highwater mark. (vegatation right down to the water in most places) Good luck though doing this seeing it has some rapid runs that look practically impossible but are done by the rafting companies. But there not toting around thousands of dollars worth of fly gear.

charles
07-09-2007, 04:51 PM
I fished right below the outflow of Oxbow lake today. The area where the rafters put in. It was a big lot with 3 restroom buildings, right where the water comes out of the mountain and down about 1/4th of a mile. Was that private prop?

dtp916
07-09-2007, 04:55 PM
Not if you stayed in the water or below the mean-high water mark, your not trespassing anywhere in CA.

How did you do?

Grab an American River stream time map and it has plenty of places to access and spots worth checking out.

charles
07-09-2007, 06:54 PM
Had one nice one on. When the trout hit I was wet wading, and trying to hold my shorts high enough to keep the cell phone in the pocket dry with one had. Thought I had a sang, and then the snag pulled back. With only one hand I didn't get a good hook set and was he off within 5 seconds. That was the only fish I had on all day. I had fished farther down river for about two hours in the morning with only one strike(Just when I started to get some good looks the flows went up and the fish disappered). Even worse two casts later I lost my wholly bugger to a tree. I went to get another fly, and then realized I only put on my backpack and forgot my flyvest in the truck :oops: (1/4 mile hike back across the boulders). By the time I got back to the truck at 3:30 I had to go because I needed to be back to Citrus Hieghts by 5:00. If I had more time I would have hiked back, man that felt like a good fish (maybe I should have just let the cell phone get wet). Took some pictures, unfortunately none of fish.
[:C\Documents and Settings\Ted King\My Documents\My Pictures\7_9_2007]

charles
07-09-2007, 06:56 PM
Sorry can't figure out how to post the picture, nothing special anyways.