CRIMES AGAINST THE AMERICAN RIVER!

[fishwithjd]

Okay, I just can't take it anymore and have to get this off my chest (this has been building for a loooooong time, so I'll apologize in advance for the following rant).

I'm so, so, so sick and tired of seeing guys fish for spawners off the redds in this river! Spawner steelhead are a rare commodity around here and need to been left the hell alone! This practice is unacceptable, vile and reprehensible...

Surprisingly, the major culprits have been fly anglers lately. Almost daily, there have been 1-3 guys standing in the riffle below the Sunrise walk bridge ("Jim's Bridge"), sight casting to bedding fish. It's obvious what these guys are doing -- they'll stand like herons in the water, sometimes not making a cast for several minutes...until they spot a fish.

Then, it's a quick 20-foot cast into 6 inches of water and then..boom..fish on. The fights typically last only a few moments as the dark, tired fish get dragged without ceremony off the nests. The "angler" then usually pulls the fish to the rocks and, with chest puffed out, releases it.

Nice work, amigo. You must be so proud!

These bed rapers are generally using nymphs and indicators, so I'm not going to say that the fish aren't biting, but I do have my doubts. Last Friday, I got so tired of watching a guy tromp all over the redds and line fish with a dry line and a very big splitshot 12 inches above his fly, I had to say something.

"Dude, those are all spawners...it's probably best to leave them alone," I said, trying to be as polite as possible, though I was seething by the time he dragged his third fish off the beds in about 10 minutes.

And that's when he turned around and gave me the finger.

Okay, Mr. Blonde guy, so that's how you want to play it, eh? I had clients in the boat that morning so I bit my lip at your little gesture...but I won't be so friendly next time when I'm out fun fishing.

The other place that bed fishing is rampant is up at the island between upper and lower Sunrise. Fly and gear guys alike stack up there when the water's higher to pound that spot. Again...those fish in the side channel on the south side are spawners -- give 'em a wide berth and try to actually get a fresh fish to eat what you're throwing. DFG should just close that 200-yard section to all fishing all the time.

Okay, I've said my two cents worth. Again, I just hate to see our local resources raped. I know the guys doing this stuff are the vast minority but the rest of us need to police our own, I guess. Typically peer pressure works pretty well. And then there's always CalTip. I just wish they were quicker on the uptake...

[MSP]

Well said JD. That crap goes on on the time. I've seen members of this board doing exactly that in the past. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

[David Lee]

Redd fishing is LEGAL .

Having said that , it's also pretty chicken-shit .

Steelhead that are in the act of dropping eggs , or cutting a redd , SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE . Those fish are tired and need to finish spawning unmolested .

Few people out there deserve to be called Sportsmen - Dragging fish off redds is the same as shooting Spikes , or ground-slucing Gamebirds .

Just MY opinion .....

David [-X

[aaron]

amen JD

[mike N]

Thanks for the post. Ammong other things, it is posts like this that will hopefully enlighten those that delve into the dark side.

MN

[Jasonh]

Well said JD. My theory on most rivers is that if you can see the fish , 90% of the time you should not be fishing for it. Hopefully others out there will learn if they do not know better already!

[fisher_for_life]

HI ALL. I was fishing the A a few weeks back. ran into a guide and his two customers. two local men. Had a nice talk with your local guide nice guy but he was teaching this to these newcomers to steelhead fishing.

[VinceT]

Well said and thanks for saying it. I fully appreciated your STS article bringing to light to true reality of "beading" for salmon a couple months back too. Our resources need strong voices.

I'd have to say your true colors show, though, with some of your client pics (Just having fun :P ).[/url]http://fishwithjd.com/category/smoker-of-the-year-contest/

[lee s.]

"My theory on most rivers is that if you can see the fish , 90% of the time you should not be fishing for it."
Sorry, but we are just the opposite. We WANT to see the fish we are targeting. Moving fish, resting fish, and spawning fish all differ in their actions. Moving fish seem danged tough, spawning fish should be left alone and observed ONLY, and it is the resting movers that seem most co-operative for us.
Having just returned from the Smith 8) , we observed all types :shock: and STILL only observed :roll: , though we tossed at movers and resters (a few :wink: ). Clear water conditions on the Chetco is another high choice. Too low and clear for most = grand water with MANY people staying home because it is too hard. :wink:
....lee s.

[Jeff Putnam]

jd, great post! I witness this on a daily basis in the lower river where just recently a "fly-angler" (conventional fisherman in disguise) was walking over the redds above Watt bridge (uh oh, now watch more of them show up :roll: ) fishing 4 huge split shot with two eggs while casting up stream and sweeping his rod down and across while he "snags" and torments spawning fish! Unreal! This disgusting, irresponsible method of fishing needs to stop. Fly anglers should set an example and remember that steelhead and other spawning fish are already stressed and more importantly are trying to procreate which means there could potentially be "more" around if we could put our egos away for a minute and instead witness something so spectacular that when you watch and actually "think" about what's going on, you'll decide against disturbing it.
Fish for the grab and leave the lead and bobbers at home.

[Adam Grace]

Awesome post JD! I totally agree.

[sculpin]

Jd
This is a great topic and Tristan your post is very spot on . As Tristan stated any of us who fish for adult steelhead or salmon in a river are fishing for spawners . I hope the fresh ones we catch can recover enough to spawn . Am I going to quit fishing for steelhead ? Nah . A lot of the problem with people fishing the Reds is each year there is a new crop of steelhead fishermen that need to be educated . When they see all those big fish they get all excited and go after them . The only way to help the fish is giving them a place or time or both that they can spawn without being harassed . In my area some feeder streams are closed to all fishing year round to provide a place for the fish to spawn and some main stem rivers close at spawning time or switch to fly fishing only . It's not perfect but it seems to work .

Mark

[Darian]

It seems that a longer or more stringent closure of rivers/streams or extension of existing closures (to cover the entire spawning season) is the only sure way to allow fish to spawn, undisturbed. 8) Unfortunately, that event might mean that all fishing in those areas would be stopped in the valley, above the delta. Including Striper or resident Trout fishing... :( :( No longer realistic, as it probably would be unacceptable to most of the guides (including jd) and or business owners who benefit from fisherman spending. 8) 8) Would any of us support more closures :?: :?: :?: I gotta say that, altho, I understand the frustration, etc., behind the original post, it's unrealistic to assume that everyone who uses that river feels the same way about it.... 8) 8)

As Tristan correctly points out, if we're fishing Steelhead, we're fishing for spawners; regardless of where in the river we fish. 8) 8) So, basically, our complaints amount to objection to fishing/wading for Steelhead on the redds and actively spawning fish. I'm not going to condemn anyone for any LEGAL method they use to fish 8) Whether to use gear/fly and/or boating/wading are all personal choices. So, IMHO, this is an educational issue. Lets keep the confrontations under control. 8) 8) 8)

[fishbonz]

so for those of us who don't know better, how can you tell a steelhead is on the redd, vs. just resting? teach the rest of us, please....

also, based on the theory that the steelhead are on their way to spawn, whether they are on the redd or not, are we not weakening them either way? (just playing devils advocate!!! :) )

BTW, I can't tell the difference, so I just swing my fly and hope a fish is nearby.... I have yet to catch a fish I can see in the American....

ced.

[hookedupanglers]

Good post, tough topic. I wrote almost the same thing on my web site about a month ago. It was my personal thoughts and I didn’t feel like I should be telling others what to do. Since JD broke the ice, I am more than willing share my experience on the subject. If you have seen the guy, his son and dog that hang out in the upper section then you know exactly what we are talking about. I myself find the best way to deal with it is to ask them if then need help landing it. The usual response is no, or I think I might have foul hooked it. I will sit there and wait to see what they do. The fish get off about 70% of the time. I find the toughest thing is explaining to your clients what is going on, and why we are not doing it. Everyone wants to catch fish. I guess some are a little more aggressive than others. I do think most of it is just being uneducated about fishing in general. What seems perfectly normal to one guy is shameful to another. This also happens quite a bit on the Yuba. I find it harder and harder to fish under the populated conditions we are currently in. I do enjoy fishing the lower American river. With year round fishing and close location it’s a great fishery. I hope no one is upset enough to stop fishing. This will not help the situation. Everyone makes mistakes and with the proper help we can all improve. My fist steelhead experience was a buddy taking me to the low flow of the Feather River below the hatchery. He rigged up my pole and we fished in the creeks. I look back at it and am able to laugh. I am pleased that the new all year fishing regulations are soon upon us, and hopefully will be spending a lot more time with my clients on other rivers. When it comes to steelhead fishing, I feel better about hooking them on the freeway than the parking lot.

[Hairstacker]

What seems perfectly normal to one guy is shameful to another.

I think that about sums up a lot of it.

[lee s.]

From what little we have seen, resting fish generally move VERY little except for what is needed to maintain in the generally shallow, mild current they choose. Shallow being relative, often, to clarity. Spawning fish generally choose like water but often a bit more shallow and having certain density to the cobble. They move and dance around a lot, returning to the redd. Moving fish generally choose a seam or "path" and have generally a meandering, steady pace that they vary little from.....even to trounce on bugs! :wink:
.....lee s.

[dberry]

Whether we like it or not, we have created an artificial salmon and steelhead fishery in the American. Not all of the returning fish can be used by the hatchery so the excess fish spawn in areas where they normally wouldn’t choose to spawn. Fish spawn from Paradise all the way up to the hatchery. No matter where you fish from mid-December through the end of March, you will be fishing over steelhead on redds. Those of us who fish for steelhead in the American try not to deliberately cast to fish on the redds and we should be aware of redd structure so that we don’t tromp through a redd as we wade to our favorite spot. All steelhead on the American are potential spawners.
The November 1st to January 1st closure of the American from Ancil Hoffman up to the hatchery is designed to prevent fishing/harassment for the fall run of Chinook salmon on the redds and wading through redds. The steelhead follow the salmon up the stream and their normal feeding habits focus on salmon eggs and later on alevins. Unlike salmon, some steelhead actually spawn and return to the salt water. These fish are almost always hens as bucks stay in the stream until there are no more hens in the stream.
If DFG were to restrict steelhead fishing from January to the end of February in the spawning habitat of the lower American, there would be a huge outcry from all of us who fish the American. The closure would protect the majority of the steelhead on redds which might increase the already non-native population of steelhead. However, no matter how one manages this fish population, not everyone will be happy with the steelhead management in the American [also the Feather]. The best we can hope for is to try not to disturb steelhead on the redds and teach some common sense, sportsmanship, and biology to the uninformed.

[mike N]

perhaps it is time to remove nimbus dam? I understand that Nimbus was installed as an emegency cooling water source for the now decomissioned rancho seco power plant and that the hatchery was installed to offset the spawning habitat that was lost by nimbus's installation. EBMUD can get their water directly from folsom. I seem to recall reading this in a book titled A History of the Lower American River.

MN

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... I seem to recall that Nimbus was constructed/installed as a regulator forebay for Folsom dam having been built in 1955. That was long before installation of Rancho Seco. Altho EBMUD proposes drawing it's water from the Folsom South Canal, I suppose that's water from Folsom (technically).... The mouth of that canal is adjacent to Nimbus Dam and runs southward from there. 8) 8)

Lets not go overboard with this.... Removal of Nimbus dam would contribute to an unregulated flow of water thru Sacramento during high water periods. :shock: :shock: Don't know about anyone else, but I'm not willing to sacrifice my house or life to flooding in order that Salmon/Steelhead/Stripers have more water. 8) 8)

[dberry]

Nimbus Dam was constructed as part of the Central Valley Project which was formulated in the late 1930’s. Nimbus was designed to moderate flows from Folsom Dam for hydroelectric generation and to provide for the Folsom South Canal. It has very little flood control capacity. The Nimbus hatchery was a mitigation measure by the USACE for loss of salmon and steelhead spawning habitat for the upper American [all wrapped into the CVP].

[Darian]

dberry,.... I'm a bit confused here.... Since I see almost nothing in what you posted that differs from my post except for the comment about the potential flood control, I'm wondering what your point was :?: :?

Nimbus still functions as a flow regulator dam and does provide some measure of flood control, no matter the amount. The dams were constructed in 1955 and the canal a bit later, regardless of when they were proposed. The funding for these dams was made available under The Feather River Project (which may've been a part of the original CVP) under the first Governor Pat Brown Sr.

So, I remain confused.... Are you making a case to remove Nimbus Dam :?: :?: :?:

[mike N]

I see that nimbus acts as a flow regulator for the folsom hydro generators. I see very little value in nimbus as a flood control device, however I do see its value as a constant flow regulator for the lower river. Without it river levels would most likely fluctuate on a daily basis.

But is is still my underrstanding, perhaps errant, that lake natoma has removed a significant portion of the natural spawning habitat on the main stem of the american.

Just think, if it were removed there would be an additional 7 miles of spawning grounds for the snaggers to rape pillage and plunder.

MN

[Ed Wahl]

You're just a glass half full kind of guy aren't you Mike. :D Ed

[smokeater]

I hate to admit it, but when I began steelhead fishing several years ago I was one of those guys that would sight cast to fish on the redds. At the time I was so new that I had no idea what I was doing. I simply thought I was fortunate enough to have an opportunity to sight cast to some fish. It wasn't until sometime later that someone educated me about the ramifications of what I was doing and suddenly it didn't seem all that sporting at all. Nowadays I prefer to blind cast to fish in the deeper water. Certainly there are those who simply don't care, but anyone who appreciates the experience of hooking up with a nice fish would want to ensure that there are more fish to be caught later. The catch and release philosophy seems to have caught on fairly well, perhaps this is the sort of thing that can be corrected through education. Like I said, I had no idea until someone pointed it out to me.

[Darian]

Hmmmm,.... Been thinking about the post concerning creation of an artificial Salmon/Steelhead fishery on the American River.... The statement about the purpose of the closure (avoiding wading on Redds) and the fact of the artificial fishery makes me wonder about how compaction of the area available for natural spawning and wading by fisherman impact the success of the spawn outside of the hatchery.... :? :?

From the beginning of the Salmon spawn thru the end of the Steelhead Spawn, these fish dig redds in the same parts of the river bed. Of course, Salmon Spawn earlier and Steelhead follow; Steelhead digging redds over the Salmon redds. Obviously, some Salmon alevin survive and escape but how many Salmon redds are dug up or covered by Steelhead before the Salmon Alevin escape their redd :?: :?: Is their more impact on Salmon survival from Steelhead using the same areas or from wading fisherman :?: :?: I've never seen anything about this in print. :? :?

All of this may be moot since, barring a negative, natural event, the hatchery can guarantee a failry constant return rate for any year. :? :?

[lee s.]

"All of this may be moot since, barring a negative, natural event, the hatchery can guarantee a failry constant return rate for any year."

Agree.....as long as they DO the funding!!! They certainly have
re-neged on a lot of hatchery funding lately.
....lee s.

[OceanSunfish]

I understand how frustrating it must be to see people arrogantly walking through the various redds or disturbing spawning steelhead. However, as long as there are hatcheries pumping millions of fish back into the system each year, it's moot.

Dams ended the real natural spawn years ago. So be happy that there are hatcheries pouring millions of fish back in every year. It's the "glass half full" perspective.

I happen to think individuals that catch and kill stripers during their spawning activities in the spring are worse offenders with zero integrity, especially during this time of absolute zero enhancement programs for this struggling fishery. My $.02

Okay, let the debate begin. :D

[David Lee]

I happen to think individuals that catch and kill stripers during their spawning activities in the spring are worse offenders with zero integrity, especially during this time of absolute zero enhancement programs for this struggling fishery. My $.02
:D

First thing -

WELCOME to the board !!

Second ?

Beers on me when ya get into town :idea:

David :D :D

[aaron]

However, as long as there are hatcheries pumping millions of fish back into the system each year, it's moot.

Dams ended the real natural spawn years ago. So be happy that there are hatcheries pouring millions of fish back in every year. It's the "glass half full" perspective.
Yes hatcheries make it just fine to disturb spawning WILD fish. :roll: :x

[Digger]

I understand how frustrating it must be to see people arrogantly walking through the various redds or disturbing spawning steelhead. However, as long as there are hatcheries pumping millions of fish back into the system each year, it's moot.

Okay, let the debate begin. :D

This feels like a setup, but I'll go forward with it:
From the little amount of reading I've done, there seems to be a majority opinion among fisheries biologists advocating the detriment of hatchery vs. wild stocks, citing things as smaller overall and less agressive fish, less ability to adapt to natural survival and predation, etc.

see articles: http://marineresearch.oregonstate.edu/assets/page_folders/programs_page/salmon/ian-site/01%20E&F%20Nordic%20JFR.pdf

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=1051-0761%28199305%293%3A2%3C230%3ABSOHAW%3E2.0.CO%3B2-D&size=LARGE

[Darian]

Digger,.... I feel the same way about that post. However, I'm not sure what the debate is. :? :?

If I understand the comment, correctly, the presence of hatchery fish creates a sense that wild fish are of less value and allows us to wade thru redds and snag fish without pangs of conscience....(OSF, please forgive me if I've misstated the intent of your post). 8) 8) I suppose for some that point of view might be validated by numbers rather than by quality of the fishery. 8) 8) After all, there's still nothing illegal about where fisherman wade or the introduction of hatchery fish. Apparently, the CA legislature and all those who supported AB 7 (re: gauranteed hatchery funding, passed last year) agrees with that position, as well. 8)

I would prefer a quality fishery for the American River (whether hatchery based or natural spawned). IMHO, most Steelheaders on this BB want a completely natural spawn. A laudible goal but probably not realistic; given that we're located in a major population center and below a set of very large and complete blockages to historic spawning areas. :( :( Sooooo, it seems to me that lamenting the presence of hatchery fish is not likely to solve the problem of people wading thru redds. 8) 8)

That brings me to one of my questions in an earlier post.... What is the impact of Steelhead spawning activities in crowded conditions on Salmon and/or earlier Steelhead redds :?: :?: Do these later spawners cancel out earlier, natural spawners :?: :?: :?: Haven't seen any comments on this yet. :? :?

[Covelo]

That brings me to one of my questions in an earlier post.... What is the impact of Steelhead spawning activities in crowded conditions on Salmon and/or earlier Steelhead redds Do these later spawners cancel out earlier, natural spawners

Judging by the fairly large number of salmon spawning in the lower American and the restricted number of river miles available for fry, the impact is probably negligable. The system is probably saturated with fry regardless of how many redds are disturbed by steelhead. I have never seen numbers on it, if they exist, but I would guess that greater than 90% of the salmon run is hatchery in origin.


I happen to think individuals that catch and kill stripers during their spawning activities in the spring are worse offenders with zero integrity, especially during this time of absolute zero enhancement programs for this struggling fishery. My $.02

I have never understood how enthusiastic (sometimes fanatical) steelhead fishermen can hold stripers so dear. Erraticating this non-native species is probably the greatest thing that could happen to bolster steelhead populations and the general health of the bay. From what I have observed, stripers are not struggling at all or not enough, depending on your POV. :D

[David Lee]

I have never understood how enthusiastic (sometimes fanatical) steelhead fishermen can hold stripers so dear. Erraticating this non-native species is probably the greatest thing that could happen to bolster steelhead populations and the general health of the bay. From what I have observed, stripers are not struggling at all or not enough, depending on your POV. :D

Uhhhh ...... :?

Actually , the BEST thing we can do for Steelhead would be pulling out every dam in the state , then getting rid of ALL of the people here . That .... and not fishing for them at all .

Not too feasable , I guess . Just about everything in CA. is non-native .

Different strokes .

David :)

[Digger]

David for Governor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[Darian]

Covelo,.... Thanks for the observation on Steelhead spawning over Salmon Redds. It does make sense that natural spawning doesn't produce the majority of fry in the river. 8) 8)

Not sure I agree with your observation about Stripers, tho. Altho, Stripers are non-native and predators, they don't compete for spawning areas with Salmonids. They do eat almost anything else with fins, crustaceans or amphibians but not insects or eggs (unless they're inside another fish).... :? :? So, while in fresh water, they're not competing for food. In the ocean, they each share the kill or be killed environment. IMHO, I don't think Stripers do as much damage as Squawfish below the Red Bluff Diversion Dam where Squawfish are known to eat Salmon/Steelhead fry migrating downstream. I just don't have the same feeling that Stripers are the gigantic threat that is attributed to them.

The problem with eliminating non-native species is that there're too many of 'em, they've been here a long time and are now established and many of them contribute to real economic value for businesses/residents in the areas where they exist. Just as Salmon/Steelhead are beautiful creatures and put up good fights when hooked, Stripers are beautiful creatures and put up good fights when hooked. All of 'em eat well. I see nothing bad in either species. They're all under stress from loss of habitat.

If we are to eliminate Stripers from the Delta, undoubtedly, Black Bass would take over their place the major predator of Salmon/Steelhead in the delta. 8) 8) If we remove Black Bass, why not bluegill, Crappie, Redear Sunfish, etc., also. None of this is realistic given the DFG budget and pressures from special interest groups (....of which, I'm one). 8) 8)

I'm no longer an "avid" Salmon/Steelhead fisherman in that I only fish for them when I'm not able to fish for Stripers or other salt/warm water species, so, I would be one of those who does not support eliminating Stripers. I'm for spending money to eliminate species like the Zebra Mussel, NZ Mud Snails, Mitten Crabs and many of the weed types currently choking the delta, tho. :D :D :D

Anyway,.... tight lines. 8) 8) 8)

[Covelo]

Not sure I agree with your observation about Stripers, tho. Altho, Stripers are non-native and predators, they don't compete for spawning areas with Salmonids. They do eat almost anything else with fins, crustaceans or amphibians but not insects or eggs (unless they're inside another fish).... So, while in fresh water, they're not competing for food. In the ocean, they each share the kill or be killed environment. IMHO, I don't think Stripers do as much damage as Squawfish below the Red Bluff Diversion Dam where Squawfish are known to eat Salmon/Steelhead fry migrating downstream. I just don't have the same feeling that Stripers are the gigantic threat that is attributed to them.

Many stripers are year round residents of the rivers and bay. The man who taught my Dad how to steelhead fish on the Eel River used to fish the bay at Benicia once he got too old to travel much. They use to go down there on Wednesdays when the DFG truck would pull up and start dumping smolts. They fished with fake trout lures and caught hundreds of big stripers each year. The stripers would move next to the bank and start gorging themselves on the smolts. I have heard from others also who have cut open stripers and found fry in their guts. I have to disagree with you in that stripers are huge predators of salmonids.


The problem with eliminating non-native species is that there're too many of 'em, they've been here a long time and are now established and many of them contribute to real economic value for businesses/residents in the areas where they exist. Just as Salmon/Steelhead are beautiful creatures and put up good fights when hooked, Stripers are beautiful creatures and put up good fights when hooked. All of 'em eat well. I see nothing bad in either species. They're all under stress from loss of habitat.

I did not mean to imply that we should try to eliminate them, just that we should not be coveting them. The posters comments about despising fishermen that take spawning stripers was a perfect example. The DFG protects all those non-native species you listed by imposing bag limits on them. Why, so people can have a few easy to catch fish at the expense of other native species. That makes no sense to me. I agree that they are beautiful creatures, but only when I can travel to the east coast and catch them where they naturally occur. How does a non-native species lose habitat when it had none naturally to begin with here?


None of this is realistic given the DFG budget and pressures from special interest groups (....of which, I'm one).

You are correct, unfortunately. Still I hope you and others will see the hypocrisy of taking that position then complaining about the declining steelhead populations while attributing that decline, at least in part, to activities that IMO have much less impact on the runs.

[OceanSunfish]

If I understand the comment, correctly, the presence of hatchery fish creates a sense that wild fish are of less value and allows us to wade thru redds and snag fish without pangs of conscience....(OSF, please forgive me if I've misstated the intent of your post). 8) 8) I suppose for some that point of view might be validated by numbers rather than by quality of the fishery. 8) :?

No forgivenss necessary. Sometimes it's hard to put things in writing and I don't always have the time or proper mindset to make myself clear.

First and foremost, I do not condone the disturbance of spawning fish, period. That includes stomping on redds and other 'nursuries' created by game/sport fish. Nothing makes it right, but my thoughts stated below make it tolerable.

My comments were driven by the "numbers" (vs "quality") in conjunction with my adjusted perception of the river.(see below) I do prefer "quality" myself, but I am also a realist.

I mean no disrespect to the American River, but I see the river for what it is or has become, which is a river severely shortened in length by a dam or series of dams. The steelhead and salmon fishery, in my view, became artificial when the dams blocked fish migration to their native spawning grounds.

I guess you can say my expectations of what I experience on that river are adjusted so that I just enjoy myself and not let my day get ruined no matter what I see or hear.

If I want to insure a fishing experience that is "quality", I'm resigned to the fact that I have to travel afar and typically outside of CA, far from the insanity of this State's fisheries management, or lack thereof.

[Darian]

As usual, Covelo's and other's comments are thought provoking and I certainly do enjoy these discussions. :D :D

I find myself agreeing with much of what is said, in terms indigenous species vs non-native, philosophically. However, I'm a believer in adaption and survival as they apply to non-native species.

On that basis, I'm accepting of certain non-native species (e.g. Stripers, Shad, Black Bass, Sunnies, etc.) and the contribution they make to enjoyment of fishing and local economies. 8) 8) Nor do I devalue indigenous species.... I jusr don't fish for them as much and don't attribute any more difficulty to catching one over another. By that I mean that I don't believe that Steelhead or Salmon are much more difficult to catch than a Striper. After all,neither has a brain much larger than the size of a pea. :lol: :lol:

There is no doubt about Stripers (....and black bass for that matter) preying on Smolts stocked where Bass live. These smolts are hatchery fish and are an easy target as they have not been exposed to large predators prior to stocking. Nor is it likely they have the instincts of a wild born fish. Altho I have no proof of it, I'd venture to say that were Salmon/Steelhead in the area where hatchery fish were being stocked, they'd feed on them, too. :? :? To me, this is just an example of natural adaption and survival.

Once a non-native species is established, as Stripers are, they inhabit an acceptable habitat for their survival. 8) 8) That was what I was referring to when I mentioned the loss of habitat. IMHO, it's too late to say that a non-native species cannot experience loss of habitat as it never had one, here. Clearly, Stripers are established and have occupied their niche here for a lengthy period of time. 8) 8) 8)

[Covelo]

The timing was perfect on this one. Here is the fishing report for the Feather River from http://www.shastacascade.org/fishreport.htm


Big striped bass were attacking baby steelhead released from the hatchery as well as jigs, swimbaits, reaction baits which imitated them. Lure fishing was best around Yuba City while bait worked better downstream near the mouth. Steelhead fishing was pretty good in the Low Flow Section, with darker adults and bright steelies of around 3 pounds being caught on nymphs by fly fishermen, and nightcrawlers, with and without beads, by bait drifters.

[Darian]

I don't disagree that Stripers prey on hatchery smolts due to their availability and seeming gullibility.... However, I'm not sure that Stripers are any more effective than Black Bass or Squawfish in foraging for hatchery smolts that aren't smart enough to leave the area where they're stocked or get away from any predator.... 8) 8) Also, I'd bet that after a short time and disbursement in the river, these smolts are more difficult for predators to catch. 8) 8)

Do Stripers, Large and Smallmouth Bass take lures that imitate Rainbows :?: :?: Yes. I even use a Rainbow Trout pattern for them. But, for most of the year, Salmon/Steelhead just aren't available as a primary foodsource for Stipers....

In addition to stockers, Stripers/Black Bass take spinner baits, Senko's, any number and types of plugs/lures.... Many times, a Rainbow imitation is not the hot lure/pattern.... As Ken hanley has said, on occasion, Crawfish are his number one choice of patterns for Stripers and, according to Ken, this was based on stomach samples.... 8) 8) 8)

Stripers and Salmonids have co-existed quite well together using their environments to survive. The main difficulties for each species started when development activities (land/water) began in the CA Delta.... IMHO, it will not change for either species until concerns with those activities are addressed. :( :( :(

[OceanSunfish]

Man, I can't seem to let this one go :wink:

Yeah, big fish eat little fish. Big salmon eat small salmon/SH. Big steelhead eat small salmon fry/alevin, and probably SH and salmon smolt devour the suspended striper larvea as well. I think sturgeon and catfish eat anything they can get their lips on! :D

It's not the fact that stripers are eating hatchery raised smolts that bothers me. BTW, that's the only 'natural' thing about the whole exercise, IMHO. :D I see the whole exercise as one big waste of money. Even non fisherman friends of mine, when told of this practice, laugh at the pathetic nature of the practice. On the other hand, I'm not sure Gary Loomis' Fish First program would work in front of all the dams in CA and out of reach of the tributaries either. (Another thread)

Seriously, Stripers migrate year around and their diet changes constantly. 6 months out of the year stripers are mostly at sea or in the bay feeding on hard baits like 'chovies, smelt, sardines, etc. That's where the most food is, not upriver. These bait fish travel together and school up. Stripers 'divide and conquer' these schools which offer more substance because there are tons of this bait at hand, typically, each summer.

There is very little doubt that they also eat downriver migrating salmon and steelhead smolt too, but it's really "opportunistic" feeding when the two actually cross paths, which isn't always guaranteed. Like Darian said, they disperse and are tougher to round up vs. traditional hard baits that school up, and get pushed back and forth between the "Brother's", Shag, Harding rocks, and So. Tower all summer.

Hey, how about picking on Squawfish? They stay in the rivers and IMHO, are relentless due to their numbers alone. Add up all the squawfish and they dwarf what is left of the striper population. Squaws eat a lot of eggs, alevins, fry, etc. Absolutely relenteless. And, it wouldn't matter if the dams exisited or not, these squawfish would penetrate the tributaries and lay in wait even on the traditional spawning beds.

There are several reasons why it's not such a good idea to pit one sport fishery against another, especially using the 'non native vs. native' angle. The most glaring reason is that this is exactly what opponents of sport fishery management prefer. They (opponents) want to "divide and conquer" us too. :x And, its been working for years. Whinning about a few smolt being eaten by stripers where DFG rings the 'chow' bell plays right into the hands of the politicos and opponents alike.

I still believe all of our exisiting sport fish can exisit in healthy numbers, in one form or another, even under today's challenged ecosystem. Proper water management makes the most difference.

[Covelo]

Yes and no. Certainly better water management and removal of some dams would go a lot further torward recovery of these ecosystems. On the other hand, game agencies and "politicos" have been very good at lowering everyones' expectations. IMO, the equating of a non-native game species like stripers to a native species like steelhead does exactly that. It is important that one is not native and is only here because some person did not know better and introduced them. Just because they have been here for over 100 years does not add equivalency to them.

I would like to believe that we can have healthy numbers of sport fish also, but whose definition of healthy are you going to use. Having catchable numbers of a few runs just does not cut it for me. To this end it seems the fishermen have been lowering their expectations of what are acceptable catchable numbers. I have read estimates that placed the steelhead run on the Russian at over 50,000 fish. One old timer told me stories about catching "trout" in Austin Cr with a burlap bag! Historic counts above Benbow on the South Fork Eel River were 10,000 to 20,000 fish for each run -- kings, silvers and steelhead. That was 60,000 fish annually above Benbow. I doubt anyone has that in their definition of healthy.

BTW, squawfish are native to the Sacramento system and the Russian River so steelhead and salmon evolved with them. Yes their numbers are higher now due to the dams but to compare them with stripers is not valid. 100 years is not much time to evolve to avoid a new predator such as the striper. Additionally, I have never heard of squawfish in the bay, which was probably a huge nursery for all the salmonids at one time, but is now a guantlet of stripers and largemouth bass. And when these species are not eating the smolts directly, they are eating the food base which used to support them and the other native species such as sturgeon and halibut.

The catfish are not native either, though they have a bag limit also. :D :wink:

[OceanSunfish]

So, why not focus all steelhead restoration efforts on the coastal rivers (Eel, Klamath, Smith, Russian, San Lorenzo, and their tributaries, etc.) which are not impacted by striped bass, BASS, and other predators? These locations are not as convenient as the central valley rivers, but there's more good to that vs. bad. Coastal streams are more conducive to the restoration efforts by Gary Loomis, etc. that seem to be working in Washington state.

I know one thing, being that stripers are fishable 365 days a year (and if the population were extremely healthy to support year around pressure,) that's a lot of angling pressure NOT standing next to you on the the river and stomping all over the redds, etc. In other words, if Steelhead were the only healthy 'game' in town, you either going to have a lot of company standing in 'your' river or fishing as a whole, becomes a lot less mainstream, meaning less votes, no funding and no resistance to development, water exportation, etc.

So , why not have:

1) 100% steelhead restoration on coastal riverways only. (rivers that don't connect to the SF Bay and out of reach from the predation that seems to bother you) Steelhead fishing seems so much more fulfilling on a coastal river anyways and my car probably won't get broken into either.

2) Hatcheries on central valley rivers continue to mitigate the effects of dams on salmon to support commercial and ocean sportfisherman interests. (They don't seem to care if the fish was born under a rock or in a vat)

3) Enchance striped bass, BASS, and sturgeon populations in SF Bay where the higher percentage of fishing enthusiast spend time and lots of money 365 days a year. (Boats, launch, tournaments, bait, tackle, guides, etc.) Lets face it, BASS is one area where there is actual growth in the fishing tackle industry. ($90 Triple Fish swim bait! :shock: )

[Darian]

OK,... Once again I find something to agree with and much to disagree about. :lol: I do respect the opinions offered. 8) 8) However, I believe that we've reached a point of impasse. :? :?

The main point of divergence, here, is based on the proposition that a native species is always more valuable than non-native; regadless of whatever standard is used to measure that value. 8) I do not concur with that position.... 8) Under that presumption, all indigenous peoples of this country would be worth more than all others. After all, we've only been here since sometime in the 14th century (or thereabouts).... 8) 8) Native Americans were here long before that.

At this point, I'm worn out on this subject. Thanks, everyone, for the mental exercise and good conversation..... :D :D :D

[Covelo]

Sunfish - You missed the point. If the non-native species were gone, the runs of salmon and steelhead would probably be large enough to withstand the extra fishing pressure. They alone would not have to shoulder it anyhow, as pops of sturgeon and halibut would most certantly be higher also. Think of it in terms of total biomass in the bay. Something is going to have to eat all that food currently being consumed by all the non-native fish. Personally I would like it to be steelhead and salmon, but the sturgy people can have some also. :D

Darian -- Certainly non-native species are not always less valuable (however you want to measure that) than native species. Voluntary and involuntary migration played an important role in how species are currently distributed throughout the world. These are "natural" events though, and while the actions of humans are categorically "natural" also, the recklessness and motive driven ways we have accelerated the dispersal of so many species makes it tough to view them as the same. In the end, the real issue is too many people and their "good" intentions, the first of which nobody seems willing to address.

[OceanSunfish]

Well put Darian. I agree with your point of view as well.

Enough said.

[Ed Wahl]

Hmmm, what's going on here? This thread's taken on a life of it's own, and it's got nothing to do with the original post. I could understand if the weather was miserable and all the waters blown out and brown, but things are warming up folks, get out there. We're all easier to get along with after some fishing time. Bring back the really relevant debates, beads, bobbers(oops, did I call 'em that?), scents, split shot, trolling, stream ettiquette, litter, you know, the really heavy stuff. Tell ya what, lean in next to your monitor, sniff, smell that? that's fish smell off my hands,( or was it off my dog who had just rolled on a dead fish?) doesn't that just make you want to get out and hit the water? If you smelled that either I'm a genious or your insane, you tell me. God I hope this puts an end to this monster of a thread. Let's see some fish pictures instead. Please? Ed