Klamath Dams Relicensing

[Langenbeck]

Announced today that a provision of relicensing the four dams will be the installation of fish ladders, screening, etc with an estimated price tag of $300 million. The CEO of Pacific Power has stated he won't do anything to raise the price of power to his customers. Right now the betting is that all four dams will be eventually removed. Would cut and paste the article except the local Grants Pass paper does not have an on-line version.

[Langenbeck]

http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/APStories/stories/D8MVU6A01.html

[Digger]

Warren Buffet was at one time going to be the Governor's economic advisor. :lol:

[bigtj]

I'd take Warren as my economic adviser, any time. Probably in the top ten of visionary businessmen of all time. And he's donating his fortune to the needy. A great man, his generosity will be remembered for many generations.

Good news on those dams. My guess is fish passage will be the option followed but boy it would be nice to see those dams gone, especially the lower two.

[Covelo]

Tristan - Is this why the Cal DFG does not attempt to put passages on any of the dams in Calif? Or is it just funding?

[sculpin]

If I remember right it seems like I was told only Irongate Dam doesn't have a fish ladder on it. I remember thinking at the time that doesn't make any sence the builders would put ladders on all the dams but the last one. Was this information wrong ?
To play Devils advocate here , if we tear out all the Dams aren't we going to contribute to Global Warming ? I'm not a fan of Dams but what will we use to replace the power generation lost by the removal of all the dams that folks want removed on the West Coast ?

Mark

[slipjoint]

If I remember right it seems like I was told only Irongate Dam doesn't have a fish ladder on it. I remember thinking at the time that doesn't make any sence the builders would put ladders on all the dams but the last one. Was this information wrong ?
To play Devils advocate here , if we tear out all the Dams aren't we going to contribute to Global Warming ? I'm not a fan of Dams but what will we use to replace the power generation lost by the removal of all the dams that folks want removed on the West Coast ?

Mark
i think the dams will outlive anyone on this board - why - because i think there are more people out there that care more about people than they do fish - don't believe i have ever seen a person running for office say - i'll get rid of every dam in the state if you elect me - your electric bill will go up a few hundred percent - you won't need that ski boat anymore unless you replace the lower unit with a jet drive - but thats OK - we will be able to bring in a film crew & make a movie - i know - we can call it a river ran thru it

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

I was told that it won't be economically feasible for the private international company that owns those dams to put fish ladders on them so they will probably be taken out.

[sculpin]

Tristan
I'm pretty sure Warren Buffet wouldn't be interested in the Dams if they only provided irrigation water. Here is a link to a site about the power generation . http://www.pacificorp.com/Article/Article1152.html . I guess I should get up to speed on what's happening on the Klamath River because it's in my back yard .
Removing the Dams should help the fish but after fishing the mouth of the Klamath and seeing the river blocked with nets it's a wonder any fish are left. It's funny that the net situation is never mentioned in any fish recovery plans or the news . I guess all we can hope for is a plan that will benefit all concerned .

Mark

[Darian]

I'm confused by some of the conclusions expressed in several of the posts under this thread. First, the Klamath dams were owned by the California Oregon Power Company (COPCO). These dams did, at one time anyway, generate power for California/Oregon use. Of course, the dams are now owned by a private company. If that ownership is correct, how does that company receive taxpayer dollars for operations :?: :?: Isn't it more likely that they sell their products (e.g. power/water) :?: :?: Further, what are the precise costs of operation of these dams??? I'll wager that none of us knows, but, I'd be willing to bet the revenues from operations exceeds the costs or Mr. Warren Buffet wouldn't invest in them.

Not all dams in Califrnia are owned/operated by the Feds, but, those that were built thru the Feather River Project (circa 1952 thru :?: ) were required to address mitigation for loss of spawning habitat to Salmon/Steelhead as part of the approval process. 8) 8) The result of those considerations was the establishment of fish hatcheries below those Dams. 8) 8) During the period when these policies were established, hatcheries were considered to be the best solution to a knotty problem. Now they (hatcheries) are seen very differently than when they were built. :?

Lest anyone think I'm not concerned about the environment, I'm not a fan of dams but if existing dams are removed what are the alternatives for power generation, water distribution/storage/consumption :?: :?: In the case of power generation, geothermal (steam), solar, wind haven't been overly succesful and that is due, in part, to the fact that the public hasn't really invested in them, yet. :( :( That would appear to leave nuclear power. :shock: SOoooo,.... I guess I'm not convinced that removal of all of the dams listed for same is a viable alternative at this point in time.... :? :? :?

One of the "things" that I've come to realize as I've grown older is that we can make bad situation worse by not considering all of the impacts of our actions/inactions. :( :( :( From what I've read here, I don't think any of us is qualified to make those judgements. 8)

[bigtj]

If you guys haven't read it, you should read the article, it answers a lot of questions raised in this thread:

"Based in Portland, PacifiCorp is owned by MidAmerican Energy Holdings Co. of Des Moines, Iowa, which is controlled by billionaire Warren Buffett.

The utility serves 1.6 million customers in six Western states. It is seeking a new operating license for the Iron Gate, J.C. Boyle, Copco No. 1 and Copco No. 2 dams, which straddle the Oregon-California border on the Klamath River and produce about 150 megawatts of power, enough to serve 70,000 customers. The power represents 1.7 percent of PacifiCorp's total output"

150 MW is a lot of power but relatively a drop in the bucket of the water supplied to the west. Personally, I think it would be fine to give up that amount of power to restore runs on the Klamath. The economic benefits of restoration of a commercial fishery, combined with tourism dollars, would offset the loss. And the environmental benefits would be well worth it. We can figure out a way to come up with 150 MW of energy somewhere else if the dam owners aren't willing to put in effective fish passage.

Nowadays dams just don't get built in the US unless they can mitigate the damage they do to a river. Nothing is perfect, but thankfully the days in which we just go in and put in a dam and don't pay any attention to what it will do to the environment are over. As a country we have to think smarter when we do things like build dams. The damage to the Klamath has cost us a lot of tourism dollars as well as a commercial fishery. When you balance that against 150 MW, if we would have just built the dams smarter to begin with, we probably could have gotten close to the same amount of energy and not ruined the river.

[Bill Kiene semi-retired]

Thanks 'bigTJ'

We appreciate the time you spent studying up on this issue to get some facts straight for us.

Sounds like we might get one of our greatest river back in our lifetime?

[Digger]

Overall in the U.S. Hydro-Elec provides 7% of total power generation.
There are about 1200 dams in Ca alone. Less than a fourth of them are hydro-electric. Operational costs are about a penny/kilowatt.

More than 50% of the nations power is generated by burning coal, 19% burn gas/oil, and about the same for nuclear.

There are currently 104 nuclear reactors operating in the U.S. Less than 2 cents per kilowatt.
Over the last several years plans for a return to nuclear power generation are gaining momentum. Several new reactor designs are in certification stages. Agree with it or not, this is the way forward.